Episode 20: ‘i am because we are’ with dance movement psychotherapist Juliet Diener
~music - “Wake me up, loud as clouds..all my love for you. You’re a dreamer, I am too. it’s f**king normal we could rule the world”...
Lauren Fenton 0:01
Okay Rina, you seem stressed what's going on?
Rina Teslica 0:05
Do you ever feel that parenting a disabled child is chaos like absolute paperwork chaos? There's just so much admin. On top of caring for your kids. It's like, I'm my frickin daughter's PA.
Lauren Fenton 0:20
Ah, yes, you should try the new Hibi app.
Rina Teslica 0:24
An App?
Lauren Fenton 0:26
Not just any App, it's disabled parenting mega PA organisation, so you can schedule appointments, have reminders for your medication. Have all of their medical notes and letters in just one place.
Rina Teslica 0:40
Hang on. Spell this out to me again.
Lauren Fenton 0:42
Hibi. H I B I. It's a Disabled Parenting organisation App. I wish I'd had it when Bea was younger. It gives me a sense of control over well, the uncontrollable
Rina Teslica 0:54
Hmmm, sounds intriguing. Who doesn't want to organise disabled parenting chaos one notification at a time?
Lauren Fenton 1:01
Haha. Yes. It's my new sidekick. Side kicking the shit out of disabled parenting organisation.
Rina Teslica 1:08
That's the least catchy strapline I've ever heard Lauren.
Lauren Fenton 1:12
Yeah, okay, fair enough. They won't want it. But if you like Rina and I want to give it a go, you can download hibi for free on The App Store now.
In this episode we talked with Juliet Diener, a dance movement psychotherapist, and it's a slightly different episode where we touch upon Juliet's own personal story, but we also really spend a lot of time picking her brains on what makes her organisation (the organisation she runs called, I Can Dance) so special and what it means to really truly build a community around the space of disabled children and their entire families. I really love talking to Julia. Well, how about Rina?
Rina Teslica 1:58
I loved it. I love Juliet anyway, having known (we love you, we love you). But I think it was just so interesting because obviously I know Juliet just through Lua and taking her to the I Can Dance but actually speaking to her and understanding her ideologies about parenting a disabled kid, Lua's needs are so great and wherever I've taken her even school or like getting on to the school transport system, whatever has been such an issue because of all of her expenditure and all of her medical accessories. Yeah. And it's always been such a "foo faa". But with I Can Dance and with Juliet in particular, it's, I took her in, they kind of looked at her and looked at her knees were like, Yeah! that's absolutely fine. We can get everybody trained. It's not a problem. And I was just gobsmacked that it was so seamless, so easy. They weren't terrified of Lua or her needs. So yeah, it's incredible what they do.
Lauren Fenton 3:00
Yeah, I agree and Juliet herself I mean certainly chatting with her this episode, it really reminded me of like the importance of that human touch and interaction and pf being playful and musical with our children. It's something I try to be better at, with my kids. And also, she talks about learning to just be not necessarily do and meet your child or young person where they are. It's not always easy to remember to do that. But so important and powerful to be able to do that actually.
For ourselves as well, I think, yeah, as much as the whole dance psychotherapy experience is amazing for children. I think movement is really good for us as well. It's like freeing. That release like to you know, dance around your kitchen or your living room or whatever. So you can reminisce about you know, the more carefree days that we once had.
Rina Teslica 4:02
Raving at the club at 3am.
Lauren Fenton 4:04
Ha! You maybe. Oh, so I hope people enjoy listening.
Rina Teslica 4:11
Yeah, enjoy!
Lauren Fenton 4:29
This is The F**king Normal Podcast. The cheers, tears and Friday night beers of parenting disabled children.
Rina Teslica 4:36
I'm Rina
Lauren Fenton 4:37
And I'm Lauren.
Rina Teslica 4:38
And we're both mothers to daughters with special needs. Parenting a disabled child can often feel difficult to navigate. If this is you, you're not alone. We're here to share unique parenting stories and chat about the things that we've learned and are still learning.
Lauren Fenton 4:53
Prepare to sometimes laugh, sometimes cry but hopefully leave with a shot of optimism in your arm. And don't forget. We are talking from a parent's perspective. We would never presume to talk on behalf of the disabled child or adult. So expect bad language and quite frankly ome brutal honesty
Rina Teslica 5:12
because really what the fuck is normal anyway?
Lauren Fenton 5:28
Juliet Diener is a mother, an academic and a dance movement psychotherapist, she is founder and CEO of the charity I Can Dance with a background in Special Educational Needs teaching and dance Juliet founded I Can Dance in 2006, with a desire to build an inclusive community where dance was accessible for all
Rina Teslica 5:50
Subsequently influenced by her own personal journey. It's a joyful and inclusive place of community that whole disclosure, both Lauren and I's daughters go. Juliette is also currently completing a doctorate focused on the I Can Dance approach. Hello, Juliet.
Lauren Fenton 6:06
Hi, welcome to the podcast.
Juliet Diener 6:08
Thanks so much for having me
Rina Teslica 6:09
Can we can start by jumping straight in talking about what is dance movement psychotherapy. I'm intrigued because I have no clue what that means.
Juliet Diener 6:19
Well, I think what's so amazing about it is that we're living it every day. We are using our bodies to understand and experience the world. And in a way we create our own patterns, our own ways of being our own creative responses to what it is to be in the world. And dance movement. Psychotherapy is about relying on how the body receives messages, how the body understands what it is to be in a relationship, how the body explores being in the world, and how what goes on internally manifests itself through the body, and that we explore that a little bit more with being creative in the body, and that it is about exploring it through dance, but dance movement, psychotherapy doesn't always look like you're creating a dance, that we have a dance through life and that's very much what dance movement psychotherapy is about.
Rina Teslica 7:08
Oh, that's beautiful. Dancing through life.
Lauren Fenton 7:10
Yeah, we should all dance about through life. Anyway, shouldn't we we should be thinking of life like that.
Juliet Diener 7:17
That's how it starts. Think of our children. Every child, no matter what they explore through their bodies, that's how they they begin in life. They it's all about a mother's touch, a mother's gaze. A mother's help being held by a mother. And so often as we become adults, or as we, what we see a developing in the world, we become more cognitive. And we focus just on the thinking and the words. And I think we then sort of forget how valuable it is to work through our senses or through the body as a means and as a tool of understanding the world around us. So we're doing it all the time. It's just not forgetting that it's there.
Rina Teslica 7:58
Tell us a little bit about I Can Dance and the process of that and why you started it in the first place.
Juliet Diener 8:05
Well, maybe to understand why I started I Can Dance, I can tell you a little bit about my journey. And I suppose since I can remember, I have danced since I can remember, I explored the world through moving and creating. As my family tell me I used to sort of climb up on the table and dance for everybody and insist that they watch them. So I was obviously a drama queen and my mother love to dance. And so she took me to dance. And it just clicked something just clicked for me. And so dance didn't just become a hobby, it became my focus and I then trained specifically in dance and then to very formalised training process. So I've really realised that dance was what made me feel complete. Dance was what made me feel who I was. The dancing world is also very painful, then it can be a very challenging one, because the dancers are focused on, traditionally anyway, perfection. And I then also realised very quickly that my bodies isn't perfect. My body didn't necessarily do what it needed to do always. And then with that, which I realise became very much part of my story. I then continued to do all sorts of different kinds of dance and then realised okay, I wanted to take dance more into sort of teaching and learning and educated beyond performing, and then trained as a ballet teacher. But alongside that I also then did a degree in teaching. And because I've always wanted to teach and so I trained as a school teacher, a mainstream school teacher. I taught in South Africa, and then sort of came over here. And then I was teaching in schools, and then started exploring more special education needs schools and expanded myself more and more, but then would still be teaching ballet in dance schools in the evenings and on the weekends. And then as I became more involved in SEN and I was a SENDco for a few years I realised there was something I didn't know something about living these two worlds. A world that was creative and exploratory and using my body and a world that was very much about targets and sitting at a desk, and working with kids. And it just didn't feel quite right. And also realised that a lot of the young poeple I was working with had real emotional barriers to - they couldn't even get into the room, nevermind me start to trying strategies with them. And that's when I discovered dance movement psychotherapy.
And that for me brought all my worlds together. It's like, oh, okay, there's a space and you can use movement as a tool, the dance becomes this opportunity. And it's an added strategy. And it's a way of connecting on the inside, before we start thinking about the outcome. It's more process purpose. So then I had all these various hats. And I've sort of moved between these hats. And then I think I sort of evolved for me as I was exploring these various hats, I thought no but what does it look like it all came together? And that's very much what I've developed at I Can Dance. This way of thinking, both yes, we need to think about how are we learning, but then using the tools of and creativity of dance, but then thinking about in order to do that, what's going on internally for this young person? And so really thinking I've sort of plussed as the well being creativity and learning, which is the approach of our hearts and bodies.
Lauren Fenton 11:24
Just to give those who don't know, a bit more of a feel who is it for?Who are the young children and young adults that are involved in I Can Dance? And what does it encompass?
Juliet Diener 11:34
So I founded I Can Dance 2006. And really, it was this idea that I felt, I absolutely believe in the power of dance and believe it or not just as this great fun thing to do. But as ive named as a tool as a strategy, a way of connecting a way of being a way of expressing. And because I at that stage, and still, you know, had really developed my my thinking within the disability community, it became about making it possible for disabled young people, I became very aware that young people with a variety of needs just didn't have the same access to these creative opportunities. And it just felt wrong. And so that for me, the focus was creating it within the disabled community. And it's now extended and beyond. For me, I think, ideally, I started it for the child. And now it's for the family and sort of community. And that's for me what I Can Dance is about. It's a means of bringing us together, it's a means of overcoming differences, and doing it in a very creative, non-threatening way.
Is that why it's such you're so focused on like building the community? Because you realise that we don't have much of a community?
Lauren Fenton 12:49
Well yeah, I mean, it's, so we're in a similar boat. I guess that's the reason we started this podcast is community is so so important in that kind of, both for the children and also for the parents.
Was that why? I mean, I think what you said is, it initially started for the kids, but it's now gone on and developed into something much bigger than that.
Juliet Diener 13:12
Yeah, and it feels right. And I realised that the more I sort of explore what I Can Dance is, and why I started it, I realised that started with my own desire to build community. And that comes from me growing up in South Africa. And I feel that the African spirit, so much about community that actually just recently I conducted some research about, as I'm doing along with my doctorate, and one of the biggest things that came up for me is this whole Ubuntu identity, which is, I am because we are and, and that we cannot shape ourselves without being shaped by each other. And then we do not function in society as individuals that we are absolutely everyday directly impacting each other, the small choices to the big choices. And I think growing up with that African culture that we belong, that tribal experience, which for me is really important. And I am quite tribal in the way that I build community. I think also just growing up in a community that was very split. I grew up in the middle of Apartheid. I watched Nelson Mandela walk out of prison whilst I was in secondary school, and realised that I hated living in a society that was so split that it was so in an 'us' and 'them' way that not everyone was welcome, not everybody belonged. And then I saw that play out more and more in in when I was seen working as a professional here in the UK and around the world, around these, these pockets of "youre over there, and we're over here". And that's what the disabled community felt for me that they, there was this divide. And I suppose for me, it's all about what does it mean to be? What does it mean to belong? What does it mean to actually do it together. And that's my focus that I Can Dance is about.
Lauren Fenton 15:05
Wonderful. We really enjoy being part of the community. And then in terms of your personal life, so you're, you're a mother, you weren't a mother when you started, so I Can Dance. But can you just tell us a little bit more about your personal story and how that might have influenced you over the years at I Can Dance?
Juliet Diener 15:23
I think it's so interesting how we are drawn to things and never know actually, why? And so slowly, you go along, and then you go, Ah, it's like, and I suppose that for me, in many ways I Can Dance is my other child. It was something that was birthed inside of me from my beliefs and my values. And then along came my children that then became part of their story as well. So my first daughter was born in 2010. And, you know, before that, you're the professional, and you're sitting on one side of the table. And then I saw my daughter received a diagnosis of cystic fibrosis. And then I realised are now on the other side of the table. And it felt really interesting to step across, and to know what it feels like to be on both sides. And I feel that it has informed and it's helped me to shape the community has helped me to understand what it is and how we should be working and relating. We then began a journey. And that journey continued when my son was born and diagnosed as well. And I then surely understood in a way, what it's like to manage multidisciplinary teams, many EAC Plans, you know, deal with a multitude of phone calls while still trying to find your place in the world. And I remember one time, I had a sort of health provisional come to my home. And she was looking at all the things I was trying to manage with my children, and knowing I was still working sort of thing, really building I Can Dance. And she said, why don't you just stop and just just be a carer? You know, because I think that's just really what your children need. And I said,"Do you know what my children need is to see me making change in the world". And it motivated me more, I made a conscious choice, that I'm going to do this, as well as raise my children. And my children are part of I Can Dance, they've been part of it. They've been part of the performances. They are invested in it. My family's invested in it, because it's about community, and it's about celebrating differences.
Rina Teslica 17:38
wow
Lauren Fenton 17:38
That's incredible. And yeah, kudos to you for for leaning into it. Rather than stepping back when someone suggested it, that's not to diminish those parents that do decide or for for no other reason than they have to become kind of full time carers. But how do you I guess I'm intrigued. You're, you're so emotionally invested in I Can Dance, and it obviously has this now, very personal emotional tie into your own family's story. How do you kind of step away from that? Do you need to ever step away from all of that I know that I personally feel sometimes, you know, when I've dabbled with becoming a speech therapist and done other things, I've found it too much, because I've always seen it through the lens of Bea. And I've kind of thought, oh, no, I need something different. I need something separate to that. Do you ever have that?
Juliet Diener 18:37
I feel that maybe because of the type of because I'm working from a sort of psychotherapeutic frame, the people that I find myself around me are informed, they are intuitive, they are reflective. And those are the people that I gather around me. So I feel that in many ways, it feeds me, as nurtures me. Yes, it also requires a lot of personal sacrifice. Yes, there are times where it has pushed me too far. And I've needed to look at that, and it will still continue to do so. Yeah. But I feel that what I love about I Can Dance is that it doesn't feel like a job. It's, I feel that it is something I was called to do. It feels it feels that I've been given this gift, and I'm a guardian of it. And I'm helping shape it. And I think also as, as it's grown and it's developed, I realised that it's not mine, it belongs to the community. And that is what I'm constantly trying to hold that it's it's held by others its not just by me and that is what I hope will give it its sustainability.
Rina Teslica 19:53
That could also feel quite freeing because I think once you relinquish some of the responsibility and you're passing it on to the community to help build, it must be quite freeing as well.
How do you draw boundaries between your personal life then and I Can Dance and I, I guess you bring a lot of empathy because of your lived experience. But it strikes me you do that in a way without going, Oh, me, too, I've experienced that, you know that, that you you are very clear about, you know, you're keeping your personal life and story kind of personal and separate to work? How do you do that?
Juliet Diener 20:35
It's a really important opportunity for all of us, actually, I think that we should. So often when you're a professional and you have lived experience, you're often you know, you need to put it away. And absolutely, in order to be in the right place, it's professional, it's shouldnt leak into everybody else's. However, I really feel that it should be a resource, it should be a well of knowledge that you pull from, not to say "Oh, yes or no", but to say "I identify" or "I can comprehend" or "it has informed me or changed my view". And I suppose I do it like that is that it helps to look at the list, it gives me a few lenses to look through. And gives me an empathy of the journey that the families are going through, I think so often when I tried to foster in the team is that when we're dealing with a child, or we meet a family on that day, we might see them for an hour. But there is an entire story behind that hour. And they need to hold in mind what their story is, and realise that there was so much more that happened before the hour, and there'll be so much more that will happen after that hour. So by holding that in mind, I think that helps us to deal with each other differently.
Lauren Fenton 21:59
Completely
Rina Teslica 22:00
Massively. Because you're surrounded by parents who have such vast experience and varied experience? What have you learned from parents have they shaped the way that you parent your own children or how you deal with situations in your own life?
Juliet Diener 22:20
I'm constantly just so I suppose humbled is the word as I meet every family that I've worked with, for being in education for 25 years. And I'm just humbled how everybody wants the best for the child is working with the tool set that they were given. And trying to navigate a system that is not always as supported as they as they would like. And I think I always meet them where theyre - so where are you? What is your story? How is your story influenced your child's story? How do you live that together as a family? And then how do we as professionals or community members hold that story with you? And I think I would love it that as professionals people thought about that more.
Lauren Fenton 23:24
Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. It's when it's the when everything's kind of overly, you know, made clinical or transactional with the family, you know, you come in for an appointment, or whatever it might be therapy or hospital appointment. And it's like, we just need to go through I mean, you've had this experience yourself, we just need to go through the details again. Yeah. So like relive all of that trauma or like that experience. And can you list out everything that you've been through in the last five years? With your child right there as well. So you know, I just, yeah, there's a lack of context or...
Rina Teslica 24:07
... understanding. You know, it's so funny Arbs recently (my partner) has been stepping up and taking Lua to more appointments, because I'm incredibly busy with work at the moment. And also I'm very happy to pass the baton to him. And he had an appointment last week. And he was really upset because he rocked up to the appointment and the doctor wanted the entire history. And he was like, this the first time it's happened to him. It happened to us a million times, but he was like, it's on her records. Why is the doctor not reading it before it takes what five minutes to read it off the screen to know our story to then come in at a level instead of spending the majority of the appointment talking about the past and why we've got to where we are. And I was like, Ah, this is so interesting, isn't it? So like there should be changes. They need to be doing this. Like, you're late to the party.
Juliet Diener 25:06
You see, I think that can all just be done ever so slightly differently. So if the professionals thought I need to get that history, because the reason is because I need to check firstly it's up to date. And perhaps I need to hear it from the parent. Then say so.And then also really look with empathy or look at what how your body is messaging that I mean theyre such small changes that can happen to make it a warm experience, and not a re traumatising experience. And, and I think we have a lot of times, professionals are so much so concerned about the outcome, that they forget what the process feels like, and what it feels like to be that parent sitting there. And that's where I think lived experience is so helpful. And then adapting that . And yes, I've got 10 minutes with you, because I'm an NHS doctor. And I'm oversaturated. And I'm not coping with my mental health as well, I get that. But there are still really, very gentle ways that we can bring more warmth, and more understanding into how we work with each other.
Lauren Fenton 26:24
Yeah, completely. I mean, I'd ask it's quite a personal question, but sort of, did you find that the reverse was true. So the fact that you were a trained movement psychotherapist, and you have obviously studied psychotherapy, understand it, when you face that news about your daughter's diagnosis, when that sort of landed with you? Did you feel I mean, it's certainly a bit of a kind of hypothetical question, because you don't know how you would have been otherwise. But did you feel you had a toolkit almost in your professional training that allowed you to, I guess, do deal with it in a in a better way than you would have otherwise?
Juliet Diener 27:11
Absolutely. I do feel that in many ways, I was lucky that I have been on a journey. And even just the fact that I understand education systems, and that I've done years of my own personal therapy of myself. Yeah, because that was part of my training. Yeah, I've learned what it is to talk with professionals and know the language. And so in many ways, it's helped me to really, to really be able to fight the fight that I needed to not just for my own children, but for I Can Dance, because I come from such an informed place, and then have been open to change and becoming more and more informed. So I do feel that I had that advantage, but then also used it and, and refined it. And with it as well I'm surrounded by informed friends and professional.
Lauren Fenton 28:02
Yeah, so you have a network.
Juliet Diener 28:04
Absolutely. I think I was because I think I was lecturing at the time, I think I was lecturing at Goldsmiths on their dance Psychotherapy course. And so I was surrounded by like eight therapists, so if I was having a bad day, there was definitely someone who's gonna listen.
Lauren Fenton 28:19
That's so lucky!
Juliet Diener 28:23
I was I in many ways, I was lucky. And I absolutely don't know. And perhaps that's why I place such an emphasis on the wellbeing for parents through I Can Dance. Because if I don't have that, I'm not quite sure what that would have felt like to manage all these complexities that you're going through, and then also managing the complexities and the families that I'm meeting at I Can Dance. And I think, you know, a lot of professionals feel saturated, they're not quite sure what, what to deal with a parent who comes to them that's had a traumatic experience. They don't know what to do with it. And I think that coming from this informed place has enabled me to feel that I can hold that with their parents I can hold with you. I can see you in your pain. And and then, and then you can go on with your day.
Yeah. I think one of the things that I find that I think parents experiences are so painful is that professionals aren't able to sit with them in their pain. It's very much about what medication you're and you do that that but actually when you arrive on appointments and something so raw, somewhere along the way, you hope that someone will acknowledge it. And I think when it's not acknowledged that that feels incredibly painful, and and I think it would be really interesting to explore what it is. And that's something I'm interested in is just what does it mean to care in a professional position? And are there ways of doing it with still feeling boundaried. And it's interesting because one of the values that we have as our strategy now at I Can Dance is love. And I can tell you, you don't find that in most organisations, and that you don't find the CEO of an organisation saying to the team, we can think about what it is to show love. Because that, to me is about what it is to be human.
Rina Teslica 30:25
It's so true. You've built a community around parents and I Can Dance but do you have a community for you separate from this to help you deal with whatever's going on in your personal life, thats away from I Can Dance?
Juliet Diener 30:43
I do, I have lots of very important special, loving, kind people in my world. Firstly, just my husband, and we're doing this together, including I Can Dance. We're doing life together. And he walks me through I Can Dance as well. And my family have been in support of me, even though theyre far and I have some very special women friends who have their own stories, that are there when I know I need them. And then there are some who have similar stories to mine. And some of the stories are very different. But I have consciously - I consciously seek community.
Rina Teslica 31:29
See, this is what we need to learn, personally as well. I think a lot of us, certainly myself didn't want that community because you feel like it's only happening to you, and you're the only one who's going through or dealing with it. So for a long time, I didn't want the community I didn't want to help. I didn't want to reach out to anybody, because I didn't feel that I would be seen. However, when I was seen then it was the big wake up call of why have I waited so long? Why didnt I find my Lauren? And my F**king Normal community? So it's such a long time ago.
Lauren Fenton 32:09
It's hard. And I think I'm sure there'll be people listening that maybe fee , you know, it's a lot sometimes to reach out and find people and and especially in in like the disabled parenting community, I think there's, you sometimes don't want to seek people with the same diagnosis picture or story because then the comparison is so in your face. And also, maybe you're just not dealing with it and accepting it yet. Or you know that you're dealing with it in your own way. And you don't want to be compared to anybody else's story. But I think also then you can also feel that the comparison and your scenario is in some sort of hierarchy and that somebody who is in a different scenario wouldn't get it because yeah, I'll be blunt. They feel like well, their child's less disabled than my child or that they don't have this to consider my sense is with I Can Dance it's it's just everybody together. It's not it doesn't you know, everybody's stories are different. And it's about supporting and building community based on the fact that difference isn't a bad thing. We're all here. We're all human. And love is the most important thing, I think. Yeah, I think it's it's hard. But people need to feel that actually its worth being a bit brave and stepping outside and trying to find that community because...
Rina Teslica 33:33
...it's worth it.
Lauren Fenton 33:36
Find your Rina. God, find your Juliet and you're sorted. And I guess it'd be really nice to hear how you think so clearly, you're very passionate about movement psychotherapy, and what it can do for children and adults. Can you tell us a bit of like, you know, give us a flavour or a story of a child that you've helped or a family that you've helped and what it's done for them?
Juliet Diener 34:07
Hmm. One of the core principles is thinking about what's happening internally for a child and not just believing that it's a behaviour. Everything that a child tells us is a communication. And I remember once a child coming in, and it he was in the room, and he kept screaming, and he just kept running around and screaming. And the absolute shame that the parent had, she just had so much shame. And just said "I'll take him. No, don't worry, I'll take him now". And I said to her "just give us time". Just I said firstly, just trust just ust trust that my team they can they can do it. My team can do it. And I said let's just see what's happening for him. And then we just gave him time to sort of process, to arrive, to be in the room. The team worked with him in specific ways. And over time, we realised that the screen wasn't distress, the screen was excitement, the screen was joy. And I think so often we look at something we think it's that we look at the scream, we think it's distress, and we need to remove. And actually, if we stay with we work with, we sort of feel it, work with unconscious and say, well, what actually is happening here, we discover a whole different story.
And that that kind of process plays out all the time. I find it fascinating many parents phone up and ask about I Can Dance. And I always have a personal conversation with every single parent before they arrive. And the first step is because I want them to know that there is someone that is truly interested in who the child is. And I want to understand them, I'm not going to get your full story, but I want you to know there's a voice behind this and that that voice is looking forward to see you. So that's step one, and building this relationship. But how often a parent will try to explain, when I ask them about their child, they'll start explaining and then start sort of thing, which is okay, you'll see a little bit fine,
Lauren Fenton 36:21
Oh, my gosh,
Juliet Diener 36:22
All the time. And, and, and I'll say, It's okay, this is what we do. And this isn't about your child coming and being a dancer, that's not what I Can Dance is about. This about about coming and being part of the community and us us finding ways to support your child and using the way they explore the world through their body, in finding their space in our community. And I'm always struck at how shocked they are, that no matter the level of need of the child, that that's okay. We will work with it, we're not going to reject.
Lauren Fenton 36:22
I think as a parent, you get so used to, you know, you paint these pictures differently depending on who you're talking to. So, you know, everyone knows, well not everyone, but most people know, now, if you're writing an EHCP, or looking for support within the school, or education system, think of your child on their worst day, you know, that horrible, which is just oh, so difficult to write and think about. Conversely, when you were trying to get, you know, support, I don't know, like child care; "This is totally manageable, they have no behavioural issues". You know, just kind of trying to diminish or to minimise, you know, their issues . Yeah. And I think is when you get used to putting it down on paper, what the diagnoses are, and they can look really scary on paper. And it's not about the child and knowing that child and what the child is capable of, you know, it's just about a set of labels that, you know, the systems that we rely on in health and education have put on our top children.
Juliet Diener 38:08
I think that's why for me naming it as an affirmation of I Can Dance was so important. And it's become even more so as the organisation has grown. Because most families, when they start at the beginning of being diagnosed, it's it's all about what won't happen, you know, everything that's not going to happen, every milestone they're not going to reach and all those things they're not going to do. And you're overwhelmed with their sense of the "nots". Yeah. And I just wanted to focus on everyone can dance, I can dance, And that is what we're going to do. And we will find a way. And so the approach is about and the way I feel that we should be approaching anything, not just working with disabled people. So this is what I would like. This is my challenge. So what;s that bit in between, it's going to make it possible. Yeah. And who do I need on my team to help them do that? But in between, because we shouldn't be doing it alone. It's not possible alone.
Lauren Fenton 39:03
No. That's amazing. Hence the community. And have you made any mistakes? Sorry, to like, go from that amazing positivity to like, tell us where you got wrong. What mistakes have you made along the way?
Juliet Diener 39:22
I think when you're dealing with families, that you always need to know that there's more to the story. Never feel as if all my experiences never feel like oh, we've got this. Oh, yeah, no, we understand this child. And then all of a sudden, they have a bad day. And they're gone. They're running. You're like, Okay, we didn't see that pattern. And that's one of the things I've really learned is always be open to being surprised. Do not think that this is the child I think so often disabled young people are seen as one dimensional or this is them. Yeah, we got then. And I'm like, Absolutely not. They are just as 3d if not more of like we are everyone their emotional growth and well-being is not determined by where they might be, cognitively, their experience of the world is just as what we're experiencing. So I think I learned very quickly do not think, Oh, I got it. We understand we got there we've got this, this this strategy sorted. But no, it's just always open to change, and always open to thinking differently, because that's what we need.
Lauren Fenton 40:33
What have you learned from the children that you deal with ? If you could give us an example of something that you've learnt from a particular child or experience at I Can Dance?
Juliet Diener 40:45
Well, I feel that every single one of them has helped shape what I Can Dance is, and I think that's what's made it what it is, an act that belongs to the community, is that my story has intertwined with their story. And together, we've shaped this. I speak a lot about that with Emily, who's a young woman who has been at I Can Dance since she was really little. And is now 20 years old, studying law at university. And she does a lot of young Ambassador work for I Can Dance. And her and I often talk about how our stories shaped each other, how she spoke to me about what she needed, what it felt like, what she wanted, and I responded to that in the movement, and in the shaping of organisation growing. And that story can be told numerous times where every one of the children that have stepped in, and in many ways I feel like I Can Dance is a bit of an elastic band is that it has a clear shape, there is a clear shape of who we are, what we do and how we do it. But that we can stretch according to who steps into the community. And that is true community is you shape around each other, it's not this static, rigid thing. That's the problem is that the important insistence that our static and our rigid, and until these fluidity, we will constantly knock against the science.
Lauren Fenton 42:20
That's so true. And I think that it's not even that their static in terms of like being there here and now I feel like thyere always behind the here and now the systems that we interact with, it's like things takes such a long time for, for things to evolve to suit the needs of those who who need them.
Rina Teslica 42:22
And even then it feels like they're boxed in so you're placed into a box and moving away or out of that box or to a different box is just impossible. I love this concept of the elastic band, it really does make sense. Where do you see I Can Dance going? What is your dream scenario - what is the future of I Can Dance?
Juliet Diener 43:07
My dream scenario is that we have a home. And then home is a space, which is a creative community that is interspersed between people with disabilities, people without disabilities, people coming and exploring and being creative and engaging with each other, and shaping each other in ways of what it is to be in community. And, and that there's this just a constant growth of, of sharing, and that we're learning from each other, that the young people are leading us, the young people are telling us what I Can Dance needs, and putting their ideas forward. And we are then supporting them to make that happen. Their families are involved, thier families are building and creating. It's a place where you arrive and you know that I immediately no matter the differences that I bring along with you. And that can look like so many different offers. But it's about a place I dream of a place.
Lauren Fenton 44:12
Sounds like utopia. Amazing? Can we come? I mean , so I Can Dance is in London and you know we'll have people listening who are not in London, we might have people listening who are also looking to like drive community, what would be your advice to other people who maybe want to create their version of what you've created? Organisations trying to build more community around disabled children and their families.
Juliet Diener 44:41
Just firstly, just don't give up. It's really hard work building and creating, especially at these times that we're in now around cuts and funding; cost of living crisis. And I think for me, it's about listening to who your community are. Let it be shaped by them. Let them be part of it. I think it's really important.I don't want to ever franchise I Can Dance. I remember when we spoke about growth, there was a discussion like, Oh, do you want to create an I Can Dance South London? Do you want to go create it in other parts of the country? And actually, I don't want to do that I Can Dance for me is about the people in which I've created it with and who are around me in the community that it is now it's very specific to where it is. The concepts, the principles, the values that can be shared. And that's my goal is that, and that's what my research is about, is that these ideals, and the learnings and the framework that are, hopefully one day be able to publish and share that can go anywhere and can transcend any culture, all spaces and foreign language. But that actually, you then apply that where you are. I don't want to hold on it on to anything that so tightly that it's like, oh, it belongs to me. The whole point of me creating this is so that it belongs to everyone, and that I can share it. And it's hard work. Its had work being a working mum, it's hard work having a belief and fighting for it. It's tiring. I encourage you ever. Anyone who is building has a vision to make sure you've got people around you that can help you do it. And that will encourage you believe in you.
Lauren Fenton 46:35
Yeah. What do you do to kind of switch off from everything Juliet? Who is Juliet when she's not mum, Academic, I Can Dance founder and CEO? Who are you outside of all of these things?
Juliet Diener 46:51
I’m a dancer.
Lauren Fenton 46:52
Ah, you dance! Good answer. I set you up for that one. Course you do.
Juliet Diener 46:58
And its the truth.
Lauren Fenton 47:00
I'm sure I'm sure.
Juliet Diener 47:02
At the end of the day, I'm just a dancer, a dancer with the dream.
Lauren Fenton 47:06
Oh,beautiful. What would you say to like parents who are like, dance like, you know, movement psychotherapy? What? Is there any advice, you know, to parents or families out there to how to kind of think about movement and dance with their children, you know, just on a very micro level
Rina Teslica 47:26
And how to incorporate it into the daily?
Lauren Fenton 47:29
Yeah
Juliet Diener 47:30
Absolutely. I think that's one of the reasons I created the I Can Dance approach was to be able, because dance movement psychotherapy in itself can look can look quite clinical, if it's done in its purest form. And I suppose my application of it in I Can Dance is bringing it into the community. And, and using it with the combination of the other strategies and tools. And I think it's really important that we remember that our bodies are tools, and that they are created and that our children are like tape recorders. They just they're recording everything. As they're going through the world. They're feeling it they moving it. And so are we and so how can we respond to it? So what are we holding in our bodies? And how does that impact on our relationship with that child? And then also what are our children holding in their bodies? And what are thier bodies is telling us? I think so often we can be so informed by what needs to be done. We need to go brush teeth, we need to wash face, we need to get jobs, I need to move, you're going to shift for you I need to but actually, what what do our bodies say? And what does it feel like if we stopped and listened. And if we felt because we feel everything first, then we put and then we sort of put it into the cognitive sense. And we assess things from a nonverbal way all the time. We just don't realise it at all when we're using. And so yes, and also just the creativity art, I love the fact that we can just be and I see that even with my children, I'm very playful with my children through creative ways. And, and that becomes our little story. And I think sometimes parents forget that we need to do so what does it feel like just to be?
Rina Teslica 49:16
Oh, that's gorgeous. I did try this with Lua because she can be she can become quite overwhelmed with things and because she's nonverbal, then it turns into like a screaming match or she gets very upset and there was a point where she was like pulling her hair out. But I started to just sit so if I if she was getting upset, and her favourite thing is to sit on my lap, so sitting on the floor on my lap, and just like stopping and that immediate change in her behaviour. It was like, Oh, I do have the space to stop and really think about what it is that's happening in my emotions and what is it that I really want where previously you're always thinking of like, she's upset because x, I need to do X because she's y. But just that, like three minutes of just sitting like even last night, and she was just like, I wanted to turn off the TV because it was like bathtime and she like had a meltdown. Because she didn't understand what, what was going on. But just to sit on my lap for a minute and just being quiet and just. And then she understood, okay, fine. Yes, I am tired, which is why I'm upset. And so she started to sign for tired and she started to sign for bath time. Yeah, it was so fascinating.
Lauren Fenton 50:37
Beautiful. Like, take a breath. Yeah. And a moment. Just be and yeah, like calming?
Juliet Diener 50:45
Yeah, you created that space. I think even as women, we don't always do that with each other. You know, it's always so filled with words and busyness of telling something. What does it feel like just to be? And then sense, get a sense of where eatch others at and actually sometimes you'll discover something you didn't actually see that you feel.
Lauren Fenton 51:07
Yeah. Oh, my God. Yes. Happy International Women's Day. We're recording this on International Women's Day. So let's just take a moment with each other to sense where we're at. And be. Yeah, well be and then sense where we're at. I like that.
Rina Teslica 51:26
Brilliant. Are there things that you've learned from working with parents and your own research that you'd like to share?
Juliet Diener 51:34
I am fascinated by this area that I think is actually really under researched. I think one of the biggest things for me, is how important the parents voice is, and how often parents don't feel that their voice is heard. And through that research, just by offering them opportunities to be heard, that in itself is just like a thank you. Thank you for listening. And all those parents are going okay, so where will this go? Will this make that difference? And at I Can dance we've done various bits of research some on the parent therapy groups that we run, and we've got a paper that is sort of in the process of being repeated. And at the moment, we have another bit of research that we're doing in partnership with Goldsmiths University, where we're analysing over 20 interviews with parents just talking about how they manage the last few years - cost of living, Pandemic. And what did that look like and how they looked after themselves. And its always shocking, to just discover each of these stories and what they've had to manage, and how important it was for them to be able to be listened to at this point, and an absolute hope that they're adding their voice will make a difference. And we really hope that what we gather will be able to be the beginning of quite a few sort of projects around making sure that their parent voice is heard.
I always find it fascinating that whilst every parent's story is different, how many connective themes they are. And one of those is the fight , constant fight, the constant struggle, and the absolute lack of ability to stop. Because there's just no end to what the child needs. And I think those those ongoing feeds are just the overwhelm and, and the fear of the unknown and what lies ahead, those types of things. And I think the other thing that we found really important in the research we did in the parent therapy groups is the value of each other how so often they would say what it felt like to step into a space, that they just knew there was no judgement, that they could say anything, and that they didn't have to explain it. And they didn't have to feel that they needed to clarify what the child's behaviour was, why they responded. And I think that power of each other, and of hearing each other. And that, for me is truly a gift to be part of.
Lauren Fenton 54:21
I think, well, you know, hopefully we that's what the F**king Normal is about as well. It's, you know,
Rina Teslica 54:27
Offering that space to be yourself as a SEN parent.
Lauren Fenton 54:31
Yeah, with no judgement. Absolutely no judgement. Thank you, Juliet. It's been so lovely talking to you. I feel like I feel so lucky that we have you in our lives that Bea is able to attend, I Can Dance and she gets so much joy out of it. And it's a it's a real place of, of love, which is what you want it to be. So that's that's lovely. And thank you for talking to us today.
Rina Teslica 54:59
Honestly, it's been beautiful. Yeah, you've said some really like profound things. And yeah.
Lauren Fenton 55:08
But to end just to go from there the profound and the beautiful to slightly more blunt and sweary. We always ask our guests what is the fucking normal? So Juliet, what is your fucking normal?
Juliet Diener 55:25
I think my "normal" has become that anywhere can become a space that you can make things happen. And I relate that to the fact that I have turned a Great Ormond Street toilet cubicle into a fantastic meeting room. And that is absolute truth. So anywhere can be a place that you can make things possible.
Lauren Fenton 55:50
Oh I love that. That's perfect !
Thank you so much for listening to the F**king Normal podcast. We love making this podcast.
Rina Teslica 56:05
Yes, we do.
Lauren Fenton 56:05
We are part of a much bigger team, almost exclusively all parents of disabled children. And our goal is to reach as many people as possible and create a community of support for parents and carers who share our experiences. So if you've liked what you've heard, please like and subscribe so that we can reach out to more people. You can find more information on this and other episodes at fhttps://www.fkingnormalpodcast.com/. That's f k i n g normal podcast.com you can join us on Facebook and on Instagram at fkingnormal_podcast. That's f k ing normal underscore podcast. You can get all the links and more information in the show notes below.
So thanks so much for listening all the way to the end. We'll see you next time. Bye!
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