Episode 18: Working 9 to 5 with leisa millar
~music - “Wake me up, loud as clouds..all my love for you. You’re a dreamer, I am too. it’s f**king normal we could rule the world”...
Lauren Fenton 0:01
Okay Rina, you seem stressed what's going on?
Rina Teslica 0:05
Do you ever feel that parenting disabled child is chaos like absolute paperwork chaos? There's just so much admin. On top of caring for your kids. It's like, oh, my frickin daughter's PA.
Lauren Fenton 0:21
Ah, yes, you should try the new Hibi app, an app, not just any app. It's Disabled Parenting mega pa organisation. So you can schedule appointments, have reminders for your medication, have all of their medical notes and letters and just one place?
Rina Teslica 0:40
Hang on. spell this out to me again.
Lauren Fenton 0:42
Hibi H I B I it's a Disabled Parenting organisation app. I wish I'd had it when he was younger. It gives me a sense of control over well, the uncontrollable
Rina Teslica 0:55
Sounds intriguing who doesn't want to organise disable parenting chaos? One notification at a time?
Lauren Fenton 1:01
Haha. Yes. It's my new sidekick. Side kicking the shit out of Disabled Parenting organisation.
Rina Teslica 1:08
That's the least catchy strapline I've ever heard Lauren.
Lauren Fenton 1:12
Yeah, okay, fair enough. They won't want it. But if you, like Rina and I, want to give it a go, you can download hibi for free on the app store now.
Rina Teslica 1:45
So on today's episode, we're tackling working the nine to five with guest, Leisa Millar, who started the SEN mums career club on this exact topic. I thought it was a really interesting conversation, and especially poignant to me personally, when I went back to work and my whole journey going back into the office. What did you think Lauren?
Lauren Fenton 2:03
Yeah, no, completely. I mean, I think it's, as I've said, on the podcast before, this is an area that I really struggled with, you know, trying to go back into the career that I had prior to being a mother to Bea and not being able to manage that juggle. And I think I think it's really important that we acknowledge that actually, it's just not possible for some people. So although we had this lovely conversation with Leisa, and I know she has with SEN career club podcast. And, you know, there are carers out there. And we know, we know people out there who just can't do this, it's not feasible given the needs of their children and the demands of life, the type of job that they would be looking to do. And, you know, I think we have to acknowledge also single parents, you know, don't have that additional support of somebody alongside them.
Rina Teslica 2:59
Yeah that was exactly my, my journey. As I've said before, like, there was just no feasible way that I could go back into the office when Lua was small, like it was impossible, regardless that, you know, I have a partner and well educated and had all the things but actually, technically, and logistically, it was just impossible to go back into the office. And it took a very long time a to find. And I think also the pandemic helps massively because remote working, there was no other way. You know, so that helped, I think, massively to find a job that was able to be supportive of my situation. But also, I didn't know what the hell I wanted to do with my life. I think having a second kid really starts, you start questioning your working journey and where you want to go with life.
Lauren Fenton 3:46
Well, just who you are, your identity. I mean, like, every fucking day, like, who am I? What am I what am I if I'm not caring and mothering? What Well, who am I now? Yeah, totally. And I think, for me the guilt that comes with that. So we, you know, we talked, I think it looks a little bit about the guilt of going out to work and not not therefore being with your child all the time. But I think there's also a guilt of like, just not being able to make it work and having to rely on others or systems of support, because you're not going out there and able to work and earn the money.
Rina Teslica 4:26
But also, it's a confidence thing as well, because I think for me, personally, because I was out of work for so long. I'm obviously not bringing in the monies and relying on my partner, but you also start, you know, thinking, what am I bringing to the table? Yes, I'm a stay at home mum, and I'm looking after the household, but what else is there for me?
Lauren Fenton 4:45
And it really doesn't have to be what else? I mean, the point is, you're doing something that's of incredibly value and very important, and it's more like Yeah, but I get it. Society doesn't always tell us that and also for yourself for your confidence. for you something else could be very important and could be what you want to do so yeah, I think it's really hard, doesn't it? Do either way a question? Anyway, it's a great chat that we had with Leisa and I think it's the start of perhaps more conversations around this topic maybe I think maybe next time we have to should have a full time carer parent who had no choice but to do that 100% of their time and have that discussion as well.
Rina Teslica 5:31
Agree. Agree.
Lauren Fenton 5:38
Welcome back to another episode of the fucking normal. And today our guest is Leisa Millar. So who is Leisa? Leisa is a journalist who works in audience development. She has three children, Casper, who is one Felicity who's four, and her eldest six year old Beatrix Beatrix has a rare genetic disorder called Kabuki syndrome. The syndrome impacts on Beatrix in a number of ways both physical and cognitively, she has a learning disability, low muscle tone, hypermobility, and minor cardiac issues, amongst other things. Inspired by her own challenges managing the juggle of career and kids, Leisa recently started her own podcast called The SEN Mums career club, a place for women raising children with complex or additional needs to find support and inspiration from fellow mums who are also endlessly juggling all of the extra internal and invisible load, like therapy, hospital appointments, funding all the educational fights alongside climbing the career ladder. So welcome to the podcast. Leisa, absolutely delighted to have a fellow podcaster on. I love what you're doing, and the fact that we kind of have a shared purpose or mission in this space. So welcome,
Rina Teslica 6:58
Welcome. Welcome.
Leisa Millar 6:59
Thank you both. I'm absolutely thrilled to be invited. So thank you.
Lauren Fenton 7:02
I mean, to start with, we obviously know a little bit about you, because we've been listening to your podcast. But if you could tell us what it is that you do for a job and also kind of what your background is, what were who were you before Beatrix came into your life?
Leisa Millar 7:18
That's such a lovely way to put it, isn't it? Who did you used to be?
Lauren Fenton 7:22
Not that you've necessarily completed changed!
Leisa Millar 7:22
It's true, though, isn't it? There is the before kids and after, I think for for all mums. It's just, it's just true. So I am a journalist, I've always worked in digital content. So since 2006 2007, where I got a job working on the website of glossy magazine in London, sort of by accident, when a writing competition got some work experience, or the fashion magazine, which is not anything that I would have ever gone for would have ever thought I could get. And the stars aligned. You know, digital was becoming more of a thing. They did have a website with an editor, but it was growing. So I got my foot in the door. And I was like I'm not taking my foot out of this door. So I managed to hang around there. And I was working on this website attached to a magazine and I did that sort of bounced around titles for probably about 10 years working in the fashion space reporting. So fun running around fashion shows, that kind of thing.
And so from there, I moved over to tech and worked for a big tech company that had a news arm. So I was working in a newsroom that was working with all syndicated content on a really global scale. So that was really exciting, really fast paced. And I was in that job when I had Beatrix, living in London doing a big commute, big job. And my life now looks really quite different. Six years on, but I am still a journalist, I still work in what the discipline is now known audience development. So essentially, I find and grow digital audiences for brands. So that's through things like social media, through search through newsletters, you know, using data and insight and working with editorial teams to really understand who their audience is, what they want and where we can find them.
Lauren Fenton 9:20
That's amazing. And then Beatrix came along. So tell us a bit about tell us a bit about Beatrix.
Leisa Millar 9:27
So Beatrix is my eldest. She was very much planned. Very wanted. I had my husband Jamie and I got married started trying for a baby quite quickly. I had two early miscarriages before I had Beatrix. So when I fell pregnant with Bea it was quite an anxious time as anyone who's been through that will know or even if you haven't been through that, so the pregnancy in retrospect, there were a few red flags that we now look at and go that was a bit of a red flag. I had some growth scans because she was measuring a bit small, but everybody says, that happens, you know, it's fine. We had a little bit of extra monitoring because one of her kidneys looked slightly borderline enlarged on one of the scans. So we had a few extra scans, everyone said, It's fine. It's really borderline, she probably just needed a wee at the time of the scan. It's nothing. And I really clearly remember one of the scans where the sonographer said to us, did you get your Down Syndrome screening back? And I said, Yes, Yes, everything's fine. And again, in retrospect, that stuck in my mind, and I'm like, why did she say that? You know, I've had since I had two other pregnancies, and that's never been asked before. But at the time, we're first time parents were like, Oh, yes, we've had that. It's fine, you know, but now I'm like, why did she What did she see?
To us, everything was fine. I was healthy. I was you know, trying to be so I was doing being good. Everything to the letter, I was doing the best pregnancy, you know, ambitious, I was going to do the best pregnancy, the best baby, you know, all of this stuff. And, and then Bea arrived, and nothing was as we expected it to be straight away. There were some signs that not all was well. So she was small, not not dangerously small. She was six pounds nine, but she was 10 days over. So she was quite small. The first physical thing was her ears. So her ears are slightly misshapen, they're low sighted, and slightly misshapen. And this is a feature of Kabuki syndrome that we that we know now we didn't then there were a few other other things as well, that were just a little cause for concern. But she was born at night. And we were taken away. And it was on day one, really when the doctor did the checks and then her hip funked. And they were like, well, that's not really supposed to happen. And then they scanned her heart and found a little heart murmur. So we quickly went into the school with her. But she seemed fine. She was she wouldn't breastfeed, but everybody reassured me, you know, keep trying, they put her on formula, keep trying, I was really determined to do it, she would not have any of it. But she was you know, she was feeding, she's doing all this stuff that they look at for you know her to be okay, in terms of discharging her. So after five days, we were sent off with referrals for her heart for her hip for her, you know, for her little dysmorphic features. And that was that. As far as we were aware, we'd had a baby, we'd come home few little snagging issues as we thought of them at the time. And that was that.
And it was two years, it was the month before her second birthday, that we actually got the diagnosis for the Kabuki. So along that road from her being born, to getting the diagnosis, obviously, there were more red flags, she missed milestones, etc. And it was very difficult actually 18 months, probably, period when we got the genetic diagnosis for her I was already five months pregnant with my second baby Felicity. And just so optimistic, really, we were really reassured that you know, this was very rare, it was unlikely to be inherited. And for some reason, I just had no concerns whatsoever about Felicity, and she. And I was right, she came out she's had absolutely no issue at all.
Lauren Fenton 13:06
Sorry to interject, but do you think you just felt completely different? Like, why did you? I'm kind of curious, why did you have no concerns? Like why was your instinct? So clear?
Leisa Millar 13:19
It's such a good question. I don't know. I don't know whether it was because. And actually, this is a story of poor Felicity's life, because I was so concerned with be like, kind of like, couldn't even begin to imagine that it might happen, you know, for her. And this really is I mean, poor Felicity, she's Miss independence. And I look at her and I'm like, is that because that's who you are? Or because that's who you have to be? You know, and I think that genuinely sort of started in in the womb. But I mean, I'm sure I must have done everything looks a bit different. In retrospect, I'm sure but I certainly or maybe it's because I had all those anxieties of a bee in pregnancy because I was worried I wasn't going to carry her to term or there was going to be a problem. And because I just felt like I had done that I had delivered a healthy, healthy, baby. I didn't have as much concern about Felicity. I don't know, it's a good question. I don't know why it is. Or maybe I just knew on some level, I don't know.
Rina Teslica 14:16
How did you feel when you got the diagnosis? Because for 18 months, you were kind of dealing with a child who was showing signs that there was something amiss, but you didn't quite know exactly what it was. When you did get the diagnosis? Did you feel kind of like, yes, it's an answer, kind of Hallelujah, or were you like, oh, shit, this is kind of now in writing. what way did you swing?
Leisa Millar 14:40
Ah both actually, depending, depending on the day and the mood, you know, obviously, that I think as a first time parent to say your child has a rare genetic condition that is going to mean you know, multiple impacts on their life, what you imagine their life and your life as their mother as a family is going to be. It's incomprehensible, absolutely incomprehensible. So I think to be told to have that confirmed, that is so difficult, but equally, it doesn't change who she is and what she can do and what she has been able to do. So, in that respect, it's nice to have an answer. We know where we stand, we know what we're dealing with. That's helpful. But yeah, to just come to terms with the fact that she's not just going to catch up and all of those lovely, well wishing, you know, well intentioned people who do say, please, you know, don't worry, oh, that happened to us. It was fine. Or I know someone, you know. And I know some people get a bit upset that that people do approach it in that way, but I never have I always, you know, I feel like people, people don't know how to talk about this. They don't know how to deal with this. And that's the way to do it, isn't it you reassure someone you try and be kind?
Rina Teslica 15:52
Try and minimise the issue.
Leisa Millar 15:54
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's not necessarily the most helpful thing, but it's certainly a well intentioned thing. I think. So I don't mind that so much. And I certainly don't feel like I was blindsided by the diagnosis, because I had been so reassured up until that point wrongly. It it was it was, quote, unquote, good to get the diagnosis, ultimately,
Lauren Fenton 16:17
what was the impact? You know, coming back to kind of nine to five and the SEN mum's career club and the subject of this episode? What was the impact on your working life and your career? What's it been? I mean, I guess you would have gone in and had the conversation of okay, there's, there's a lot something going on with, with my child, and I'm going to need to go to these appointments, probably at the same time, as you were telling them that you were gonna go off on maternity leave again like, Oh, how did that? How did that? I guess, it's a two-form question, How did how were work? And what was the impact for you, personally, in terms of your career and your job going forward?
Leisa Millar 17:00
So work with great work or very understanding, you know, even before the diagnosis, I think this is the thing that people don't necessarily, you know, unless you're you inhabit this world, certainly, before I came into this world, I would have thought that pre diagnosis, everything just sort of was normal, and post diagnosis, everything was not normal. I'm doing quote, air quotes here, for anybody who's watching this video. But I think nothing really materially changed. In terms of our day to day after her diagnosis, she, she already had all of the referrals, you know, she already had all of the therapies booked in, I look back at her when she was a little baby. And I was on maternity leave. And this was sort of hanging over us. And I remember I used to sort of snuggle her and say, there's nothing wrong with my baby, there's nothing wrong with my baby. And in those days, that was because I was thinking, God, please don't let there be anything wrong with my baby. Because I don't know how I'll cope with that. And I still do that to her today. I snuggle with her. And I say to her, there's nothing wrong with my baby, because there is nothing wrong with her. Everything is right about her, you know, she is who she is, and who she's meant to be. It's been such a journey.
But I think, you know, in those early days of work, to me, that was just parenting, she was our first child. So she had some appointments, and I, you know, read all this stuff about how difficult it was to juggle work and parenting, and you know, you'd have to leave on time. And you'd have to go and do this, and you'd be pulled in all directions and get the guilt. And that's what I you know, that's what I was doing. I was dashing out in the middle of the day, I was working from home, so I could go and take her to a hospital appointment. To me, that's what parenting looked like. And it's only since I've, you know, had my other children who don't get half as much of my time and certainly don't need to do any of that stuff, that I realised that that wasn't what people talk about when you talk about juggling, work and parenthood. But to me that that's what that was. And in terms of my work, also my husband Jamie, he's a freelancer. He's also a journalist, but he's freelance. So the way that we've always been set up before we have be is that he works on his own time he works commission to commission so he manages his own time. And I've always had, I've always enjoyed being, you know, in the more corporate world, having the nine to five and the colleagues and you know, being in the office, I mean, I work remotely now, but I'm essentially in an office, I'm on teams all day. You know, that's just the way our roles and our work is split. So he takes on a lot and always has done in terms of those appointments and things as well. So between us back in those early days, we managed and it didn't it didn't feel too bad.
I think on a kind of macro scale for my career. The big impact is that we've moved out of London, and that was a lot to do with Beatrix, but also a lot to do with just having loads of other children and needing a bit more space and needing to be closer to my family. But that that you know, I think So I think there's the day to day impact. But also there's that that enormous. My industry is in London, you know, the magazine industry, the newspaper industry, they are based in London. And if I take myself away from that, you know, I can't just go to a PR event, I can't just pop out for a drink. I mean, that changes when you have kids anyway, but you know, you make it work, you're there. And I moved out of London, and I really thought at that point, is that it? You know, am I going to have to do something else? What are my transferable skills, you know, you really start looking at that stuff. But, I mean, I was gonna say, fortunately, of course, it wasn't fortunate. But our move coincided with COVID. And suddenly, everybody was working remotely anyway, and I found a new job, that was a remote job. And the stars just kind of aligned for us in that respect. So I feel so fortunate, you know, obviously, this all impacts on my work, and how much time I have in the day to work. And the sort of stresses that hang over me, while I'm trying to concentrate on work. But in terms of my actual setup, you know, got Jamie now got my mum around the corner, I work remotely, I've got a very understanding boss. And I think all of these things, put me in a really fortunate position, which is why I sort of felt that I should use that, to try and help use that position of privilege where I can talk about this openly, to try and create that community of other women that I know are out there, but don't have some of those protections or privileges or support networks, to try and shine a light on women working in in our specific kinds of conditions, I guess.
Rina Teslica 21:41
So what was it that prompted you to kind of make or create the sand mom's career club? Was it? Was it something that kind of happened that you were like, Oh, my God, I'd need to do this? Or was it a slow buildup of Wow, there needs to be more available to women who are going through something like I am?
Leisa Millar 22:00
I think like all best ideas, I don't quite remember where it started, you know, it's just sort of always been there like they need this needs to happen. One of the big moments in that was I read Joeli Brearley's book "Pregnant, then screwed". And I remember reading the stat. And I remember being absolutely delighted that she even covered the topic of women with children with disabilities, because genuinely in any of the other content I had consumed, whether it was a podcast, or whether it was a book, it was not mentioned at all.
I remember trying to potty train be. And the book I read was, it just had such a flippant throwaway line about like, if your child is three, like you're doing it wrong, or something. And you know, and I just this was the book that everybody recommends, and it's like, someone stabbed you, isn't it because it's that constant, I am not doing this right. I, I, you know, she is not thriving because of something that I have done wrong. And it's just, it was just so flippant, just a tiny example of, I guess, I guess what I feel is a microaggression towards, you know, parents, who are trying to raise children different, who have different abilities and needs. And so I was delighted to read that book, and just just see that parents with disabilities were acknowledged as a group, it's the first time that really I had seen it. So thank you, Joeli, if you listen to this, it was amazing. And the stat was that 3% of women with disabled child are in full time work. And the definition of that was what we understand traditional full time, you know, permanent roles. So I just had that playing on my mind a lot, because on the one hand, I'm like, well, that's a very, very tiny amount of a lot of women who were probably in full time work before they had their child. But equally, you know, if you look at the stats on women who did have a disabled child, there are a lot of them. And that 3% constitutes a lot of women. And actually, then if you bring in women who are working, but aren't in that specific, you know, niche bracket in terms of that data, if you look at women who are working part time, who are working, you know, on a freelance basis, and all the other ways that we know, women are keeping themselves sane, earning money for their families, you know, working on themselves away from being a parent. That's a huge, huge number of women. And I couldn't I didn't know where they were, I couldn't find them. Like I say this book was the first time I'd even seen them acknowledged as a group.
And I have come to think of it as kind of a Venn diagram. So I'm in the centre, and I have sort of three big responsibilities or components to my life. So there's, there's work, there's parenting, and there's the care that comes you know, with these needs, the three big things and the content that I could find always only dealt with two. So it's it's the same. It's it's the care and the parenting how to parent a child with additional needs? Or it's the work and the parenting. How do you do that juggle that the parenting with work. And I didn't, I couldn't see one that acknowledged the whole picture for me, which was the care, the work and parenting, and particularly not through that lens of the work, you know, it's always the child comes first. And we all know that they do. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a forum to talk as women about work about our ambitions about our achievements, and our careers and our dreams, and our abilities. Just because we have a child with a disability. So that's what I, that's what I couldn't find, and I felt really passionate about making.
Lauren Fenton 25:53
I think that having listened to your podcast, and what you've just said, is fascinating that I can really picture that Venn diagram for myself as well. I definitely I kind of came to that challenge of managing work and parenting and caring from a slightly different angle than you because I had my first child was neurotypical. So I had done the whole go off on maternity leave to have a baby. And then the poor thing she was put into nursery from like, 7.30 in the morning till six at night, so that I could go back to work and just carry on doing what I had always done. And my experience, I guess, you described, you know, your thinking, feeling that the juggle that everyone referred to was the Juggle you were experiencing with the extra hospital appointments and etc. When my Bea came along, I very quickly kind of had this comparison to my previous child who had been relatively straightforward. And it was very different. And very, I think we call it in our previous podcast episode extreme juggling the, the all, the the additional load was just kind of magnified times by 10. From from from that kind of normal parenting load. And it's it's really interesting. I feel like my, you know, going back to your Venn diagram thing, I felt like I had a lot of conversations at work where people would just say, Ah, yeah, going from one child to two children. Yeah, you're not you're, you know, you've got a bigger family now. Oh, yeah, that mum responsibilities, there was a lot of assumptions. And I guess it's what you were saying earlier as well about people trying to be helpful in minimising or reassuring. And I felt like when I went back to work kind of post Bea, or even when I had conversations about going back to work post Bea because I took quite an extended period of maternity, I took kind of almost an extra year of maternity and called it a career break. There, there was a lot of viewing it my situation as a parenting challenge, without acknowledgement of the additional load that comes with having a child with additional needs. You know? Yes, there's the hospital appointments. But there's the emotional like side of it as well, which we've all experienced. And yeah, I think I think there isn't enough conversations in the workplace or places for people to really get that unless you've been in it. So yeah, I find anyway, long winded. But I found it really interesting listening to your guests, describing their different experiences and how they've made it work, how they've got that Venn diagram actually sort of working for them, because I don't think anyone strikes that perfect, like, you know, balance, work life balance. Everyone hates that term.
But the different pivots, the different approaches that people have taken, and I'm interested to know has did your outlook or your way of you mentioned COVID, and more children and needing and Bea's needs and being closer to your family and doing that big move. But was there anything that changed significantly in your kind of your outlook on your career and your your work? Because there is that big perspective that you get with having additional needs?
Leisa Millar 29:23
Yes. It's interesting, because I think work simultaneously became more important to me and also less important to me. So just, I guess, a healthy readdressing of the balance. So work was important to me before be because it was who I am, you know, who I believed myself to be a striver a hard worker, you know, someone who puts in the effort and gets out the reward. And it was so tied up with my identity, you know, particularly when you're in a kind of like an industry that I was in where it's all all about your profile. You know who You are who you know where you're seeing all of that kind of very superficial stuff. That's very stressful when you're in it. And I didn't find it at all glamorous, just mainly stressful, but I enjoyed the work. And it was very important to me then and because I felt like if I don't have that, who am I.
It's not important to me for that reason. now. Work is less important to me, because the most important thing is the, and I know that in a heartbeat, if I needed to drop everything today and just do what Bea needed, I would do it. And it wouldn't, I say, it wouldn't matter to me, of course, it would matter to me work is very important to me. But fundamentally, it wouldn't shake my understanding of who I am, as a person, you know, would not affect my identity. And I say that as someone with a huge amount of privilege, because I am working. And I think if I did have to drop work and and do that for Bea, I think I would struggle with that. But it's just that sense that work is readjusted in the pecking order of things that are important to you. So it's not life or death.
Rina Teslica 31:03
Funny because listening to you, it's such like a mirror towards my life, because I had the opposite. Once Lua was born, I took six years out of not working. And it was because I needed to be there because she was incredibly ill, it took a good couple of years to get her to like a stable space. But also, having been out of the workplace for so long, your confidence is knocked. And then you start thinking, who will employ me who's going to take on a mother to a child with special needs, and who's going to be willing to be understanding, because ultimately, especially in the corporate world, I do something incredibly similar to you, I work in writing within the beauty industry. So it's very similar. And ultimately, it's corporate. So making money is the biggest thing for these businesses. So how will they be understanding and accepting of me having to like go off and take loads of therapy or take her to, you know, appointments or hospitals or whatever, whatever. So I think that held me back for a very long time until I was confident enough to say, actually I'm great. I can do it, and I will put myself forward. And thankfully, I found a job that is incredibly understanding who let me do whatever the hell I want, of course, up to a point. So it's, it's interesting, because for me work was a way to find who I am away from being just a mother and a carer. Because I'd felt like that for such a long time. And I it shifted kind of how I saw myself and how I saw life once I got a job because it was like, Oh, this is now who I am. This is who I've always been. I wasn't just a mum and a carer that I had identified myself as that for such a long time. So yes, very interesting.
Leisa Millar 32:52
Yes. So I think I think that is the way in which work is more important to me now that I, I guess I just have that perspective of you know that the P word. And we I have that perspective. But it's, I feel very grateful to be in work. And I didn't feel that before. That's why That's how it's more important to me. I feel not like I'm here because because I'm the best at it. You know, I'm here because I've worked hard, and this is what I deserve. I'm like I'm here because I'm really bloody lucky to have a village around me to help support Bea, you know that her dad does take her to all those appointments.
You know, we transferred up here during COVID. And I couldn't drive. This is a huge thing. I've never opened up been able to drive. I've never needed to drive. I lived in London and we couldn't have a car anyway, even if I wanted to drive so but then suddenly we're up here in suburbia, and I can't there isn't a bus outside my front door that will take us to open street or then you know the nearest equivalent Children's Hospital. And it's COVID times so only one parent can go with B so her dad ended up taking her to everything. And I was honestly you know that get that mom guilt, like a paediatrician is gonna be like, Why doesn't her mom care? Like she she's never here. She can't she doesn't come? And it was always like, well, I can't because he had to drive he had to take her. So it's just like that, that sort of understanding that I am one of two parents who have an equal investment in making sure Bea is okay, you know, that is a shared load. In all honesty, it's probably 60 70% Jamie and 40 30% me because I'm focused on work. And that's the way in which work is more important to me. I had a guest on my podcast, Lizzie Parsons, who is an online business manager and she said something that will always stick with me and I think about a lot and really helps me and she said work is my opportunity to flex being myself. And it is that is what work is to me now. It used to be work was myself. You know working He is who I am. It's not who I am now, but it is my opportunity to be who I am. And I think that is what that is the difference for me.
Rina Teslica 35:11
I love that quote. I love that.
Lauren Fenton 35:14
That's really interesting. So I guess, as well as what you just described in terms of, you know, the, your husband or partner doing more of the lion's share, I think, I think it's really important that we kind of acknowledge, you know, there's that awful thing of like, women, in particular, having it all, and doing it all. And it's actually about a combination of luck, like you said, in terms of what support you have around you, but also about kind of what you want out of life. And I think it's, you know, I asked about your perspective changing. And you've, you've said, you now it's your opportunity to flex, being yourself in the work environment.
I feel like I had a complete shift, which was yes, work was completely about me, and that was my identity. But I feel like my identity is no longer tied to that work. I've had a sort of revelation that I don't want to be in that space anymore. And so I think it's not just luck, it's also about what do you want to be your time away from being that carer role? And what's important to you for yourself for for your future, obviously, in the context of we all need to make a living or have some sort of income or something to support our families? But um, yeah, it's, it's there are many different ways of doing that. So I'm also curious to understand from your podcast, guests and your experience interviewing other people, what's kind of, they'll be any really surprising, either pivots or ways that people have changed their working circumstances to make it work. What's the most surprising thing that you've learned?
Leisa Millar 36:59
It's a great question, and I do you know, what I think, going into the process, I think I was maybe hoping to, to find the answer. I was hoping that I would speak to these women, and I never thought of doing that. That's genius, like I will, that's what I'll do that will sort of solve this, this problem for me. And unfortunately, I didn't, you know, find find the magic bullet. But I think it's just been fascinating because all the women I've spoken to some of them have sort of gone back into their, into their roles. So for example, Kate Blackmore, she's a surgeon, and she continues, you know, to to be a paediatric surgeon in the field, you know, in a field that affects her, her daughter, you know, absolutely astounding. And she makes that work. There are other women I spoke to who have gone freelance, you know, in the same industry, or made a slight pivot, so it was possible for them to go freelance in the same industry. I think, really, I am most, not most in awe, that's not fair. All of these women were incredible. But I think the thing that I find personally just so impressive is there I interviewed a woman called Deb's Aspland
Lauren Fenton 37.28
Loved Deb's episode, by the way. Big shout out to Debs
Leisa Millar 38.16
She her situation, you know, she had three children very close together, and all with quite significant additional needs, and disabilities, between them, including including a set of twins. So you know, wow. And she couldn't get into traditional work. So she needed to find something to do for herself. And she could have she worked in the travel industry previously, you know, she could have done something in that space. But what she decided to do was create resources and courses and support networks. And, you know, helping other people in her situation, advocate for themselves. And I think that is what I find most impressive, because to me, work is an escape from that, Work, I need as a separation for that I need to do something completely different, and feel again, quote unquote, normal. In my life. There's something this is the normal world, this is the safe world that I know and understand. And I don't want to think about disability or appointments or DLA forms, or funding or law, or whatever it might be. I don't want to think about that. I want to think about delivering this thing.
Lizzie again, in my mind, I've delivered a thing today I have delivered a thing and that makes me feel better. You know, that's what she said. And that's how I feel about work. But for Deb's and also Charlie, Charlie Bestwick, who I interviewed in the in the season finale. She's a teacher, but she has gone on to you know, set up charities and big support networks and she's a speaker and an author and an advocator in the disability space and for me, taking on that stuff professionally. I'm absolutely in awe of that because I needed to do something different, and these women used what they knew, and they created that kind of good. I think that was really impressive to
Lauren Fenton 40:09
Don't discount the fact that you actually did an element of that too. You started a podcast that was specifically in this space. So I think kudos to you, too. Don't Don't do value that, you know, it might not be your day to day, full time work. And I think I think there seems to be a lot of those pivots that people make, presumably, just because they see so many gaps in the system. And when you see a gap, you you potentially have an idea on how to plug it. I agree, I think God we need people like that, that can go out and, and champion and advocate and support parents and families of kids with disabilities.
Rina Teslica 40:51
As well as having their own. I mean that like it's yeah, it's insane. I'm also like you, Leisa, like, I studied nutrition. And obviously like being in the hospital. You're surrounded by dieticians. And I remember one dietician, when she heard that I was a qualified nutritionist, she was like, Oh, well, I can get you, you know, into a programme here at St. Thomas's. And we can do it and I was like, No, hell no, I don't want anything to do with health. I don't want to work in that space. I've had enough of it. So I took a complete 360 and did something that was about feeling good and looking good and nothing to do with health or disability or so I also have massive kudos to anybody who is working within the industry within the space that also was dealing with it privately at home. I think it's just incredible.
Lauren Fenton 41:40
It's hard to create those boundaries, then I guess it's that's that's the thing. That's the biggest challenge when it's so emotionally close to your heart as well as kind of practically. I'm interested in how so how to how did how did you ask that question? I can't remember for of Deb's, and, Charlie, when and how they create that kind of differentiation between helping the world and helping their own family on the same at the same time? In the same field? And I guess I don't know.
Leisa Millar 42:11
Yeah. Well, Charlie was an interesting interview, because she was she was talking about what her purpose is, you know, her her why. So she wanted to go into teaching because she wanted to make a difference. And, of course, I mean, she, she, she was teaching primary school, she had twins, one of and one of her boys, you know, had had a very, he was very badly affected by a genetic condition and needed an awful lot of extra care. And she continued to be a primary school teacher throughout that. And I think that, and for her, she reached a point where that was unsustainable, and she couldn't keep doing both things. But she said for her, it came down to what are her values? And what could she do that still aligned with her values?
So I think I think it's almost about staying true to yourself. You know, I think if if your values aren't necessarily helping people, I don't want to say my values aren't helping, aren't helping people. Because, you know, I'm not a monster. That's professionally, not one of my, is you know, ultimately, is not one of my, you know, not something that drives me in my career. I'm not I'm not in a helping profession. But I think I think just that alignment with with what you're doing, but you know, I appreciate what you're saying, how do you tow that line? And I'm not sure that they do. I mean, certainly for Deb's, you know, I know, she really felt she feels that unfairness of this, you know, the families that she's helping she feels she feels that really personally and really deeply. And I don't know how, you know, how could you How could you not, because we know that the system is so broken, and we know that it's so difficult, and just again, absolutely hats off to these women who, who are in it, you know, with their families, for other families all the time. It is so difficult. They're amazing.
Rina Teslica 44:08
What else did you I mean, you've interviewed a load of wonderful, amazing women who have gone on to do lots of different things, but what would you what is your advice to other parents who were in this position? And they're looking to maybe get back into the workplace? What are things that you've learned that you wish that you knew at the beginning of your kind of journey, or things that you've figured out from interviewing these incredible women that you would wish to pass on to somebody who just happened to be listening to the episode today?
Leisa Millar 44:39
I think I would say come and find us, you know, come and find us. We are out there. And I think that's one of the things that I really wanted to do with the podcasts. You know, we've got some social media channels that I you know, I neglect horribly because it's sort of part of my day job first sort of not and but with their you know, I do Keep an eye on them. And I think I think just a sense of community is enormous. I wish I had had that. And I think through the interviews, what I realised I didn't know what to expect going into them. And I thought, How am I? How am I going to, for example, with Kate, who's a doctor, you know, how am I going to relate to what she's saying her experience is going to have been so different to mine, or Lizzie, who was, uh, you know, used to be a civil servant, and now is in business, or Helen, who was who's in the legal profession, you know, I was thinking, we're all very different, these are all going to be different experiences. And actually, what came through was just this absolutely universal struggle with the fighting against the system for our children, whilst trying to hold on to our careers and our sanity, regardless of what that career was, you know, it was a sense that I'm not alone.
You know, my experience of filling in the DLA form for the first time, and being rejected. And I felt relieved, because I thought, Oh, these people, you know, they know what they're doing with disability, maybe she's not actually that disabled. This is brilliant news. You know, and then, of course, you come down the line, and you go, nope, they just don't want to give you the money, because it's the government. She deserves it. She is disabled, they don't know her. I know her, you know, we all come through this process. But I talked about that in one of the episodes. It was with Deb's and Deb's went through the same thing, you know, and I just thought, you know, I've always felt a bit stupid about that experience. Because I think in retrospect, I should have known that. But no, you know, it's not, it's not stupid. None of this is stupid. None of us are told, taught how to do this, you know, just like, nobody's taught how to parent, nobody's really taught, you know, you get a diagnosis for your child, or even you don't get a diagnosis for your child, but your child still has a lot of additional needs. And nobody, there isn't a course or, you know, you sort of have to work it out for yourself. And certainly navigating work alongside that, what I have just found the most helpful thing is knowing that other people are doing it too. And it's okay to struggle with it.
One of the most amazing things to come out of the podcast, actually, as well as talking to all of the amazing women I've interviewed is the response I've had from other women out there who are also doing this, you know, so many people contacting me messages on my social media posts, emailing me saying, you know, this is me I, you know, I've never felt seen like this before, because of course, you know, in what forum? Are you going to talk about this, you're not going to talk about it in a professional capacity? Because you don't want, you know, you want to minimise that idea that, yes, you're a parent. But you know, when we're at work, we're supposed to pretend Right? Like, we're not parents, because we don't want it to impact on our, our work. But what if your child needs a what additional care as well? Nobody's gonna talk about that in a professional context. I mean, I'm pretty sure I've made myself unemployable at that point, where I'm like, if if, you know, so be it, because this is so important to me. But it is, it's a concern, right? By talking about this. I'm out there saying, I have a child who takes a lot of extra time. And we know children take up a lot of extra time. And I also have two other children who do have that time as well, including a baby who is pretty full on, particularly at the minute. So it's, you know, nobody really talks about this. But but there are other people going through it. And you know, Lauren, to your point where you said, you know, it sort of gets just swept into that whole: Oh, yeah. It's hard parenting and working, isn't it? Because I think people who are parenting and working, it is so hard, you know, and it's really important. I think, as part of this conversation that we acknowledge just doing those two things is nearly impossible. It's really, really hard. And adding in the care element, makes it even harder. But I think unless you can see that care element. You don't you don't know what it is, you don't know what it means, you know, no idea.
Lauren Fenton 49:14
Yeah, completely. I remember saying to my boss once. I was trying to call some hospitals up to rearrange some appointments. And she said, Oh, gosh, do you have to do this a lot. And at the time, I was like, Yeah, that's probably about, I'd say about an hour and a half to two hours a week of just ringing around appointments. And she was like, Really, and you just like was mind blowing for her that there was this additional load? And I mean, that was just like, that's just one little thing. And that's less emotionally draining than a lot of other things. It's not the appointments themselves. I think it's what you said about not talking about it at work. Made me really angry, not at you, but just at just to clarify? Not at you. But it made me really angry because I think that that, that that minimising of who we are, yes. Okay, you might want boundaries about, you know, what you are in your personal life, who you are in your personal life and who you are at work, but sort of having to pretend or deny that you have all of these additional things that are absolutely fundamental to your life in that Venn diagram, and are going to require you to, at some certain points in the working day or your working life, have to reprioritise and refocus. I think it's just so sad that it isn't easy to have those conversations.
So I went back into the job that I'd done as a management consultant in a big four, big four accountancy firm, and I went back, and it's very much an environment where it's up or out, you know, the expectation is, you will work your ass off and you will get promoted, you will work your ass off so that you can get your bonus. And if you don't want to climb the rung, like what are you doing here, and you'll be kind of managed out or it certainly was like that, back when I worked in that environment. So the idea that you're not hungry for that extra work or that you aren't willing to take on more and or if you're good. And I think this is like as why you're good people give you more work and more responsibility and more roles and more projects. And I was in denial and I was definitely minimising at the time, I wasn't managing my kind of acceptance and digestion of my Bea's condition very well. And I was defaulting to the kind of superhero, fixer, clipboard carrying person that I traditionally, you know, had always been. So I was supporting that kind of minimising hiding, not talking about it, and then kind of was surprised that I wasn't getting some, you know, it was also kind of simultaneously surprised that I wasn't getting support. And, you know, this culminated in me just not being able to do do it. Like it was just too much in terms of the hours that I was working the travel that I was expected to do.
So I think it's really, I guess, it comes back to values and identity that as we've sort of mentioned, but I think it's also important that we, as people in this space we like you've been doing with the podcast, we do try and talk about this and we do try and get it normalise the experience in the work environment as well as in in, you know, our home lives as much as we can. Because it's only by doing that, but like people and start start to have some understanding of what it is that you have to contend with if you're doing that juggle. But I know that's not easy, I guess. I'm interested to hear what your kind of most difficult time has been for you personally Leisa in terms of managing it all. And have you ever come close to the situation I had where I kind of went: No, I've got I've got to handle the resignation and change changed something quite drastically here.
Leisa Millar 53:21
It's a really good question. I think my my toughest period, I'm just coming out of it. In all honesty. We've had a really difficult summer with Bea's health. And I think in all honesty, I've been clinging on to work like I've been clinging onto work with my fingertips, you know, don't know what it would take for me to give up work. It would obviously just be something obviously very serious that be needed me for long term. But I feel like I am clinging on I cling on to work at all costs almost. But in terms of burning out, though, one of Bea's biggest issues has always been her hips. So she has hip dysplasia. And she had all sorts of treatments for it. When she was a baby. There's a pathway for it. So when she was only a few weeks old, they put her in something called a Pavlik harness which correct over 90% of hip dysplasia is in babies, apparently it's quite common. We didn't know it was linked to a genetic condition at the time that makes it slightly harder to cope with. But we were reassured again, you know, this will sort it out. She was about four or five, which tiny baby and had to wear the sort of whole body harness. It's so difficult at the time, it was just the beginning. So when she was nine months, she had a major hip operation and went into what they call a Spica cast, which is like a double legged hard cast basically. So her legs were cast wide open, and it goes up to sort of her waist. Very difficult in a very difficult for all of us. And ever since she came out of that, and it's always been Let's keep an eye on it. Let's keep an eye on it.
And it got to this summer and it's always been it's not quite developing as it should, not quite developing as it should. So she needed another operation. And that was sheduled. She had the operation in in August, it was scheduled for July and cancelled the day before and rearranged. So that was difficult in itself. But the thing that made this the most difficult is that my husband Jamie, snapped his Achilles tendon playing football a few weeks beforehand. So he went into thanks, universe. He went into a moon boot thing and onto crutches could not weight bare, could not lift, carry, do anything, drive. Bearing in mind at this point, I've got a baby who's turning one who's not walking, you know, who needs carrying, and then Bea had her op. And everything was just very difficult.
Fortunately, I had since passed my driving test. So I was able to drive I was thinking, you know, you always think, oh, it could have been worse, I think it would have been even worse if I couldn't drive. But you know what, this is the thing. Every cloud, it made me drive because I passed my driving test a few months ago. But of course, I've set up my whole life so that I don't have to drive. So I never really drove and I was still really nervous about getting in the car. And this forced me to drive. So there's always a silver lining isn't there that's my like, it made me a driver. Because I had to be. There it was really it was, it was so difficult. It was over the summer holidays, Bea had her operation. So they completely had to reconstruct a hip this time. So she went back into a spiker cast because she's bigger, can't really lift her. So we were contending with a wheelchair for the first time. And all the equipment. And of course, just trying to get out of the house. Jamie is on his crutches, I'm pushing be in the wheelchair, I've got the baby in a sling. He's He's a massive one year old. So he's probably too heavy for me to carry, but I had to put him in the sling. And I've got my four year old, poor Flissy, who, as I say just has to basically raise herself because, you know, my two other children have higher needs than she does. So I'm trying to sort of get her to hold on to the wheelchair. And honestly, I think we must have looked like a comedy sketch. But it was very difficult with work because it was the summer holidays. But coming out of that it was very difficult getting Bea back into school. Normally she goes on transport, she goes on a bus, the bus couldn't take her even though it's set up for wheelchairs, because it doesn't have a head restraint on her chair because she doesn't need that. But that means that they can't put her on the lift and take her in the bus because then but then they can't lift her into a seat from the wheelchair.
The logistics, I think is the logistics that nobody can ever get their head round and even for ourselves, you know, you make a plan, and then suddenly, something there's a curveball you could not have foreseen and it throws all the logistics out. And you have to start again, you know, and this was the case over the summer, it was this sort of on repeat, there was something else there was something else and it meant something else. And Jamie just couldn't help like he used to be able to and it was all on me, driving me to school and back. You know, Felicity started school herself at a local school in September. So she needed taking school, the baby needed taking to nursery, and it was all on me. And it was really hard. Thankfully, you know, I took some holiday from work, they were great about letting me be flexible, and you know, go and do some pickups and drop offs. But for me personally, it was just such a lot because I realised how much I rely on Jamie. We are absolutely a team, you know, and it wasn't even just that he couldn't really help it was that he was frustrated that he couldn't help. It's not even just like he suddenly wasn't there. So I had to do it all myself. He was bringing a different element to the scenario to the situation as well. You know, he was really you know, he was struggling because playing football and going to the gym. That's his coping mechanism. And he couldn't do those things, obviously, that as well. Gosh, so it was it was just a really difficult, really difficult period. And I have psoriasis skin condition called psoriasis, which is sort of just scaly patches of skin. And it doesn't normally affect me that badly. I have them on my on my elbows and my knees sort of where you'd normally get dry skin and I am covered. I'm still covered head to toe, it's on my face. It's all over my body in these sort of angry red spots and it's psoriasis and that is stress related and it's so interesting because day to day I don't necessarily feel stressed but my body is showing me and telling me like this is too much thankfully handy
Lauren Fenton 59:43
Kind of handy in a way. Sorry, not to say you want psoriasis.
Leisa Millar 59:49
Yeah, but I mean, but I mean thankfully like I'm sort of I'm too old now to care about. I don't care. I think if I was younger I would read that would really upset me. I don't care about Yeah, I do. kinda thing. Oh, well, there we go, I am very stressed.
Lauren Fenton 1:00:02
Do you get time to do in that Venn diagram to do the self care? Sorry for one of a better term, but the self care meaning just sleep or whatever it is you need to do to rest? Do you get an opportunity to do that? And how do you do that?
Leisa Millar 1:00:18
It's such a good question. It's, it's not very often at the minute. So I would, in an ideal world kind of go for a little run, I'm not much of a runner, but there's just something so compelling about putting on running shoes and running away from it all you know, and putting on your podcast or putting on your music or whatever. So I do try and do that, when I can, I really haven't been able to do much of that. But I guess the sort of smaller way that I do do that is just go and go for a walk, you know, even if it is to like to go and pick up the baby from nursery after my working day, like literally just just go for a walk to nursery and walk back and just try and and zone out and be in the fresh air and just try and be mindful. I mean, it sounds so trite and awful. But like the lovely autumn trees and stuff, you know, just trying to like literally like ground myself in my, in my surroundings.
I love going, you know, just going out for a coffee or something. So just trying to find that time to just go and zone out. I love I still love magazines, I've always loved magazines. And you know, it doesn't feel like work to me to pick up a magazine. I've got subscriptions, you know, coming out of my ears, I've got piles, and piles, and piles of magazines, and it fills me with so much happiness just to even if it's just when I'm settling the baby to pick something like that up. And I think you know, as much as the baby does add an element of jeopardy to the whole situation because he's obviously a baby, he's unpredictable. Just having having to remove myself from the situation with the girls who are full on and care for him. It's actually quite nice. You know, it's not self care, per se, but it is a sort of special time that I really value. That's different.
Rina Teslica 1:01:58
That's so sweet.
Leisa Millar 1:02:00
Yeah, I mean, poor thing. I mean, well, he's I was gonna say he's threatening to walk now. So it's a bit of a race between him and B, who's going to start walking first because she's she's got her cast off now, still in a wheelchair, but having physio, so she's like, she's, she's got a walker, now she's sort of getting back into it. And he's standing up and doing his first few steps. So we're basically like, we're gonna take bets on who is going to be walking first, Bea or Casper but you know, there's so much these, these situations are difficult, but there's so, you know, this is my family, you know, this is who they are. And they're amazing. And all of these moments, I don't ever want to feel so cowed by the situation that I cannot find the joy in the fact that Bea is starting to walk at the same time as Casper and you know, that's really cute, you know, obviously, it's a horrible situation to be in to have to watch your, your six, nearly seven year old have to try and learn to walk again after such a, such a major and traumatic operation that I have put her through as her parent, you know, and then a lot of pain, and that's my choice to have had that done for her. But, you know, this is my family. And I'm so happy that they are.
Lauren Fenton 1:03:12
And so now, Leisa, I just wanted to ask as well, what do you think organisations and employers need to do differently to support SEN parents in the work environment? I've talked about some of my challenges that I had previously, and I'm sure you've heard from from other parents through interviewing them for the pod, but what do you think the world if you had a magic wand and could change how employers and organisations support and help parents to disabled children manage that alongside navigating their careers? What would you suggest?
Leisa Millar 1:03:49
Oh, well, I think first of all, they need to know they're there. You know, there's not necessarily any means of capturing that, you know, I've worked in organisations that that try and capture sort of protected characteristics in their employees and having a disabled child isn't, is not one of those. You know, I think, in some of the more recent surveys, I've seen, you know, caring responsibilities does come up, and that is absolutely progress. That's amazing. But I think in a lot of places that's not necessarily covered. There, you know, there are protections in place.
If I myself had a disability for me in work, there will be protections in place, but because my, it's my dependent who has a disability, there is no protection in place for me because of any of the needs that I have relating to that. And I would love to see that recognised. I would love to see some policy around that because because I have a disabled child, it doesn't impact on my ability to do my job. It impacts on my ability to sit in a particular seat for a particular, you know, number of hours in the day, you know, and I think it doesn't mean that I am any less capable and genuinely it genuinely makes me feel so angry when I think of all the women who could be working, who should be working, you know, and it's not just for their benefit, it's for the benefit of the economy, for industry for, you know, all the great work, they could be doing. All of the education we've had, all of the years of experience and striving, and because of the hand that we are dealt, we have these challenges that other parents don't have. And I would love to see some kind of policy put in place to allow mothers in that situation or parents, you know, parents, not just mothers, but we know disproportionately these caring responsibilities do fall on mothers. This is why specifically I you know, it's the SEN mums career club, because I think women in work is a very particular topic, not just parents in work, I want to talk to women in work, we know that there are additional challenges for us as women, but I would love to see policy in place to protect parents who have disabled children in work
Rina Teslica 1:06:01
That leads us actually really nicely into your F**king normal then
Leisa Millar 1:06:04
My F**king normal is having to be an Oracle on Strictly Come Dancing at this time of year.
Bea is obsessed with strictly it's her thing. So she lives and breathes it we watch it every single day, even when it's off season. Thank God, there are new episodes to keep us going. But she knows everything she knows every one she knows, every season, she knows every dance. We'll be in a shop and she'll hear the music and to be like, hey, it's Mark and Karen's dance, and there's like, I was 10 years. That was before you were born. How do you know that? She knows. And if I don't know, she's angry with me. She's crossed and she thinks I don't understand. And I'm like, I do understand. I just my brain cannot hold that much information. She's brilliant.
Rina Teslica 1:06:57
That's so cute.
Lauren Fenton 1:06:57
She sounds great. Great. I mean, obviously, I have a Bea as well. And so great choice of name. Although we're Beatrice, not Beatrix. But yeah, we love strictly in our house to the gills. I mean, at my Bea basically forced to be whatever partner and do whatever dance Olivia is choreographing copying from the screen. And I have a paddle and I have to score them out of ten.
Leisa Millar 1:07:18
Amazing.
Lauren Fenton 1:07:22
Get a paddle. Good Chrimbo present for Bea there. Thank you so much, Leisa. That was beautiful. I think it's been lovely talking to you. Having heard your voice in my ears as I go out for my walk or my run. It's really nice to get to know you in sort of on the screen, slash IRL. Yeah. And your insights and those that you've kind of also adopted from those that you interviewed have just been really, really interesting. I'm sure we could have spoken for a lot longer. Thank you. .
Rina Teslica 1:07:58
Yes. Thank you so much for your time. It's been very enlightening and educational if I can say that. Yeah, you've been great. Thank you.
Leisa Millar 1:08:07
Thank you so much. I've I've loved every second. Thank you.
Lauren Fenton 1:08:17
Thank you so much for listening to the fucking normal podcast. We love making this podcast. Yes, we do. We are part of a much bigger team, almost exclusively all parents of disabled children. And our goal is to reach as many people as possible and create a community of support for parents and carers who share our experiences.
Rina Teslica 1:08:38
So if you've liked what you've heard, please like and subscribe so that we can reach out to more people. You can find more information on this and other episodes at fucking or podcast.com That's f k ing normal podcast.com you can join us on Facebook and on Instagram at fucking normal underscore podcast. That's F K ing normal underscore podcast. You can get all the links and more information in the show notes below.
Lauren Fenton 1:09:01
So thanks so much for listening all the way to the end. We'll see you next time.
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
