Epiosde 15: Conversation with a therapist with charlotte fox weber
~music - “Wake me up, loud as clouds..all my love for you. You’re a dreamer, I am too. it’s f**king normal we could rule the world”...
Lauren Fenton 0:00
Hello, this is the end of our second series and we just wanted to pop on and say a few things before this last episode. We really hope that you've enjoyed this series of the fucking normal as much as we've enjoyed making it. We have loved, loved love talking to all of our guests and listening to their unique stories and perspectives. So Rina, what what's been your favourite episode this season?
Rina Teslica 0:22
Gosh, there's been so many but I loved talking to the wonderful Tinuke and her inspiring story. It's incredible how much she's achieved to really help families find representation within the disabled community. Plus, I think Ez is super cute and I love the learning with Ez cards. I'm also actually really, really excited for our listeners to hear today's episode with a very insightful Charlotte Fox Weber. What about you, Lauren?
Lauren Fenton 0:47
So many. I mean, I've loved all of them. But I really enjoyed getting to know the gorgeous Jazz who opened up on hers and Max's story in episode nine. Urm despite all the really difficult times she's been through her sense of humour and candour was just incredible. And I also loved our conversation with Emmett on owning your own story. It's was a lot of fun and also quite moving in parts like in the really poignant moments where he described realising he needed to accept his own disability.
Rina Teslica 1:15
Oh gosh, yes, I loved Emmett's episode. But what about you? our lovely listener. What did you enjoy listening to? Why not let us know on Instagram at fk ing normal underscore podcast or email us directly at f k ing normal podcast@gmail.com. We'd also love to hear your suggestions for future guests or anything else that you'd like to let us know.
Lauren Fenton 1:37
But now today's episode, we have a slightly different chat. This is a conversation with a therapist where Rina and I actually sat in the therapy room on a couch and got what felt like a free session.
Rina Teslica 1:49
Unfortunately, while recording this episode, we had some technical difficulties and we really do apologise for the odd blip in the recording. We hope it doesn't spoil your listen to the incredible insight from our guest. Here we go
Lauren Fenton 2:19
This is the fucking normal podcast, the cheers, tears and Friday night beers of parenting disabled children.
Rina Teslica 2:26
I'm Rina,
Lauren Fenton 2:27
and I'm Lauren.
Rina Teslica 2:28
And we're both mothers to daughters with special needs. Parenting a disabled child can often feel difficult to navigate. If this is you, you're not alone. We're here to share unique parenting stories and chat about the things that we've learned and are still learning.
Lauren Fenton 2:43
Prepare to sometimes laugh, sometimes cry, but hopefully leave with a shot of optimism in your arm. And don't forget we are talking from a parent's perspective. We would never presume to talk on behalf of a disabled child or adult. So expect bad language, and quite frankly, some brutal honesty.
Rina Teslica 3:02
Because really what the fuck is normal anyway?
Lauren Fenton 3:17
Welcome back to another episode of the fucking normal podcast. And today we're gonna talk with a therapist. So when we talk with parents to kids with disabilities, a lot of themes repeat themselves. While we all have vastly different experiences and responses, we hear a lot of the same emotions described. Often feelings of initial loneliness and confusion at diagnosis, give way to an acceptance and a real shift in our life story and life perspective. There can be big ugly emotions like guilt, anxiety, despair, denial, or hopelessness, but also positive, like pure joy, meaning and gratitude. Not everyone has access to therapy. But those who do have the opportunity to talk to a professional more often than not and provided they find the right one, find it a very useful experience. Today, our guest is psychotherapist Charlotte Fox Weber and we are going to explore some of the aforementioned themes, as well as put our listeners' questions to her.
Rina Teslica 4:16
So Charlotte, Fox Weber is an experienced psychotherapist and writer who in 2015 founded The School of Life psychotherapy, Charlotte works with individuals, couples and groups on all manner of psychology and emotional issues. Her book, 'What we want', which is published by Hachet is a fly on the wall account that takes the reader behind the closed doors of the therapy room and looks at the desires and wants that make us human. It's both powerful and beautiful and a real eye opener onto the realities of therapy and its transformative powers. Hello, Charlotte and welcome to the podcast. Hello.
Charlotte Fox Weber 4:47
Thanks for having me.
Lauren Fenton 4:50
I love your book, by the way, and this might be quite creepy, but I've been listening to it on Audible. So I've had you in my ears like everywhere.
Charlotte Fox Weber 4:58
Oh gosh. It's not really creepy at all. I loved doing the audio recording of it actually, it was really interesting. But I felt, I felt guilty that I had to do the voice of my clients, because I felt like who am I to speak for anyone else?
Lauren Fenton 5:16
Yeah, of course, that's really strange experience.
Rina Teslica 5:20
So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and psychotherapy, what you do? What's your job? How do you help people?
Charlotte Fox Weber 5:29
I work with people from all walks of life, adults. And the issues range incredibly. I tried to keep it really broad for what I work with, because someone can arrive with an eating issue and actually want to talk about a marital problem. And the way problems get diagnosed or identified can can just be a reason to come through the door. But very often people start therapy, not really sure what they want out of it. But knowing that something is unsettling, and that they want deeper exploration
Lauren Fenton 6:09
Is it normally a crisis that precipitates people going to therapy?
Charlotte Fox Weber 6:12
It can be a crisis, with the couples I work with. It's often unfortunately, a crisis that brings people to the point of wanting slash needing therapy. But actually, when you're not in a crisis, that is a really great moment to get therapy, even though it can be counter-intuitive, to kind of look at what's wrong when things are going well. But it's actually when you're robust and able to have insight and can afford emotionally, to dig deeper. Because when you're in the throes of a crisis, you're you're often triaging and you're not necessarily in the headspace to be able to get insight. It's it's more about getting support, and, and getting through it. So therapy is absolutely helpful for those moments. But when you're when you're wanting to really understand something about your own inner workings, I think if if life is peachy and somewhat peaceful, not in an absolute way, but just reasonably so, then that's the moment to get therapy
Lauren Fenton 7:22
To do it, yeah. In fact, I think our first guest on the podcast ever, Genevieve, she said, What in her kind of what would be her advice to other parents... And it was like, actually, I can't really advise this, but getting therapy before you're a parent.
Charlotte Fox Weber 7:39
I just in the past 10 years, I think people have changed their attitude towards this
Rina Teslica 7:44
That was exactly what I was gonna ask. Because there's been such a shift in accepting psychological issues and being much more conscious of our issues. Now, compared to my parents and a gen, maybe even two generations older than I am. It was always more of a taboo, like you dig deep and you get on with life, you didn't really think about your traumas. But now there's been such a shift in mental health is such a big thing. Have you noticed more people are coming to your door.
Charlotte Fox Weber 8:13
I mean, since the pandemic, therapists are all quite busy, that has been going on for for quite a while, the combination of people being in crisis and emotional issues being less stigmatised. I think it's still, unfortunately, a somewhat rarefied privileged thing to do, because it's still expensive. And the NHS is just a long wait, and doesn't really touch the sides. If you have deep issues that you want to get help with. And then you have a few sessions, it can be a start.
Lauren Fenton 8:53
I think like anybody listening to this, who's experienced having a kid with disability or special needs, it's become a whole part of my identity that I didn't have, I guess being a parent changes your identity and changes your life story, fundamentally. But I think more than that, it gave me a window into or access into this world of disability that I just wasn't part of before. And that's changed. I believe that's changed who I am. And I talk to a lot of people say the same. But do you think something major happening in your life and it doesn't have to be that it could be I don't know, grief or a particular trauma? Can you shift as a person quite fundamentally as a consequence of those things? Or is it just that it brings out different parts of your sides of you?
Charlotte Fox Weber 9:41
I'm really in favour of identity crisis, which sounds a little bit perverse of me. But I think, I think that the real tragedy is when adults stop having crises and they just stagnate, and it becomes a life of quiet desperation. And, and I think it's incredibly painful to have an identity crisis. So I do not want to make light of it, it can be unbearable and terrifying and full of uncertainty. But it also is a crack that allows for the light to come in and allows for, for growth and possibility and adjustment. And when you go through something that is a huge situational stressor, it's going to change your frame for, for how you can picture life, how you picture yourself, and then maybe there's a side of you that resists that and wants to kind of prove that you're the same old you that you always have been. And I think some of that happens anyway, with motherhood of wanting to to be who you always were, and have that thread of consistency. So I think it's paradoxical. And in a way, it's like Theseus is ship in ancient Greek mythology, where the ship is constantly undergoing refurbishments and changed parts. And there are different oceans. But is it the same chip. And I think, I think when it comes to our sense of self, if we can, if we can just take a kind of widely accepting attitude, you can have an identity crisis and and change who you are in a lot of ways, and you are still allowed to be the same you you've always been. So in that sense, you can have your cake and eat it too.
Rina Teslica 11:35
What kind of advice would you give us so that we become better at saying, "actually, I need some time alone? I need to like go do something else" or whatever. I know, I struggle with it massively. I tend to snap. Help, essentially!
Charlotte Fox Weber 11:51
Do you snap when you're at the point of having been quiet and said nothing?
Rina Teslica 11:56
Yes, seething. And then just snap!
Charlotte Fox Weber 11:59
Yeah. So speaking up earlier, before it becomes a kind of urgent situation is part of it. Asking for help is incredibly difficult. And I think, I think we have to respect the resistance in us as well. Because with all of the kind of destigmatizing of mental health problems, there's, there's actually a weird kind of pressure to be okay with talking about these things. That just isn't how it plays out. For all of us. And I think I think resistance is deeply ingrained, when you hurt yourself or when something goes wrong. And you don't want to admit that actually, you need support. It's like, this feeling of shame sometimes. It's also a stubbornness. It's a wish to be omnipotent, and autonomous and needless and not depend on anyone. So it feels like surrender to sometimes say, Can you help me? It can also be complicated interpersonally, when you have to ask for help from someone you don't totally like, or you're then going to have to be grateful to that person. I mean, there's shadowy sides to help and being helped. Yeah. Like, who are you enraged by? Who do you not want to be beholden to? Who do you hate having to show gratitude towards? I can be quite anti gratitude just to
Lauren Fenton 13:29
Great. And I think, I guess just, that got me thinking that because as a as a parent, and I know, I experienced this, that that kind of feeling of, I need to keep it all together. And you know, as a, as a parent, you feel like, well, you have this huge responsibility for a child or any number of children. And when that child is additionally vulnerable, and needs so much from you, and we'll need so much from you for a long time, I think there is a tendency for people to feel I need to be strong enough to do this, I need to do this alone, or I need to somehow like turn into this superhero who can fix it and help them and support them through their lives. So I think it's very difficult not to put that pressure on yourself to not need the help and not... to cope, the pressure to code,
Charlotte Fox Weber 14:20
the pressure to cope and, and acknowledging limits is really, really hard. I remember working with a mother of a child who had recently been diagnosed with severe autism, if I can say severe, was non-verbal and was never going to be and she was coming to terms with this. And she felt like she needed to have endless capacity. And one day, I said, you have limitations. And she was massively offended by me saying that in a really healthy way. We had a strong enough alliance that we could work through it, but it opened up a really interesting Be helpful conversation about how not having limitations had been a point of pride and having endless capacity always being available. And she'd introduced herself to me by saying, I'm everything to everyone. And she had to let go of some of that. But limitations, limits can be, can be a challenge. worthwhile, though.
Lauren Fenton 15:25
Yeah. And I guess it's also then communicating, it's not just communicating for help or saying, you know, putting your hand up and needing help. A lot of people have talked about when you have a child that's going through a lot of medical complications, or you as a parent are struggling with a child with Special Needs. Some people come towards you, and some people go away from you. And think its true in life that that happens. I guess, how do we get better as parents of communicating more broadly out to people what it is that we need from them?
Charlotte Fox Weber 15:59
Well, I mean, I think that facing disappointment preemptively, is also important that there's absolutely help and support and there are going to be nightmarish people who disappoint you and let you down and do not rise to the occasion, even if you spell it out, in skywriting. Hmm. So some of it is about how you communicate, but some of it is also accepting that not everyone gets it.
Rina Teslica 16:28
Yeah, I've made peace with that massively. And it's been like such a relief, like, and it especially in like, some friendships or some family relationships. Especially in the beginning, when you have a child with a disability, you expect everybody to be as accepting as you are of your situation, but people aren't. And I would get very offended in the beginning. But now I'm just like, you're not at the level required to be accepting, and that's fine for you.
Charlotte Fox Weber 16:57
Right
Rina Teslica 16:58
and move on.
Charlotte Fox Weber 16:59
But I mean, also, there can be all the stages of grief and rage and resentment, and, and that's allowed to, I worked with someone who had been blamed by her in-laws for causing the disabilities of her child. And she actually put together a file, showing all of the medical reasons and all of the doctors explaining how this had happened and how it was not her fault. Although she, she was still so desperate to prove that it wasn't her fault. And it was so painful. It was painful witnessing her wanting to justify wanting to defend as though she had to. And she, she spelled it out for her in laws, and did not get a reply. But it was clarifying for her. Because up until that moment, the way it had played out in her life was so pernicious and so destructive, because not only did she feel let down by her in laws, her husband blamed her for how she had described the situation for why his family wasn't understanding. So there was there was a ripple effect, and having the clarity that they were really actually just not not particularly kind and not even respectful. Having that clarity was really liberating for her.
Lauren Fenton 18:37
Yeah, really dark. Relationships are hard. I mean, we've talked about relationships a lot on this podcast. And I think, you know, it's not just your partner relationship, but your friends, your broader family. Yeah, getting alignment around how to best support a child with additional needs. And I guess reacting or responding and processing some of the trauma associated with that, in different ways, can really be damaging to those relationships.
Charlotte Fox Weber 19:12
And I also think that with postpartum depression, it's unfortunately quite limited in time scope, a year and then that's it, when actually, it's something that can go on forever, and people stopped checking in. I think, the whole help thing like you have helped visitors at first. I don't know how often you get asked how you are meaningful way.
Rina Teslica 19:37
Rare. Rare. Rarely! How are you? It's all about the child!
Lauren Fenton 19:42
How's the child? How are they doing? What's new, you'll go into a health professional, you know, they have your medical records, the child's medical recoreds this is, and you'll have seen them maybe six months previously, you almost have to replay that child's entire medical history from birth so every appointment at If you talk about your birth story and talk about, like, what professionals are involved in that child, what procedures they might have been through. And the expectation that you will do that every time and not not only kind of get it right, and remember everything, all the details of all the professionals involved, but also that you're kind of okay to relive that in that clinical environment every time.
Charlotte Fox Weber 20:25
Is there any part of it that has helped you get used to the story? Because you've been required to tell it so many times?
Lauren Fenton 20:32
I think it always does. And I think actually, as with anything, if you've had something that you initially is hard to explain to people, the more you explain it, the more blunt you become in your explanation of things and kind of distance yourself from the description.
Charlotte Fox Weber 20:46
Yeah. Although that can be hard to because then then there can be judgement.
Lauren Fenton 20:51
Yeah, a lot of time, I'm asked about Bea's diagnosis. And actually, what happened in her initial birth story is I was on my own stood up in the hospital, and I'd just given birth, and they were doing the head to toe and my husband had gone home, and they sort of said, Oh, she's got a cleft palate, I think she's got Down syndrome. And it was just like, just a sort of an additional thing. Not that there's anything wrong with Down syndrome. And and but at the time that came completely out of the blue, she doesn't have Down syndrome. But I can see why they might have thought that but it was just the way it was delivered. They say why did they run all this genetic testing with her? Well, how did they find out when she was so young? And it's because you know, and I'm grateful to that nurse who incorrectly called Down syndrome, because that meant that we ran a whole load of tests on Bea that wouldn't have been done otherwise. But that moment, and that, like experience is quite a quite a traumatic memory for me.
Charlotte Fox Weber 21:48
Yes. So yeah. So she was right, that there was something wrong, though
Lauren Fenton 21:52
She was right to say that there may be some thing that's unusual about Bea. That meant that genetically they wanted to send additional testing. And actually, subsequently, she went into neonatal because she had a breathing episode. But yeah, it's just, it's funny replaying that like you say, I have to replay that a lot to professionals, and it comes out blunter and blunter each time,
Charlotte Fox Weber 22:15
What what would you say to that nurse? If you did meet her now?
Lauren Fenton 22:21
I would probably say, I probably say it's okay. Because she felt really bad because she spent the next I was in hospital for a week after that. And she kept coming to check on us and kept checking that we were okay. And there were lots of people saying like, sorry, and stuff, but without saying sorry. And I think she felt like she'd fucked up. So I would say it's okay. And actually, I'd be grateful to her that she had, although she made a mistake not and I don't mean a mistake by calling down syndrome, I think a mistake by the way that she delivered it and the fact that she probably wasn't qualified to clinically diagnose that anyway. So her kind of flippancy, I would say, was a mistake. But actually, that precipitated a whole load of tests for Bea and for us, that meant that we were knowledgeable about these chromosomal deletion from a very, very young age, unusually, so I think that's helped her to get lots of intervention and support from really early on.
Rina Teslica 23:25
Yeah, I, for me, it depends on how hormonal I am on the day. Like, sometimes I don't mind if I'm feeling good, or Lua's having a great time or day or whatever. I'm like, yeah, she's got Noonan syndrome, and I go through the whole spiel. Other times, if it's been a rough day or a rough month, like I think we met a geneticist a couple of months ago, because she's now come into a whole... Basically, they're colating all of the kids with Noonan syndrome in the UK under one scheme, which is like, fantastic. And I pushed for her to get on to it, bla bla bla. But when we went in, I was just like having a shit old time. And then you meet the doctor who's never met you and you have to go through the spiel, and I just went, do not have it on the computer. He's like, Yes, I do. But I want to hear it from you. And it's like, why it's there. I just really don't want to get into it right now. So I had to just suck it up and like, go through it all again. And obviously, when you're hormonal, you give more detail than maybe I would have done or like more intimate details, actually how I was feeling at that moment. So maybe it was a positive because then he got a much clearer picture than if it was just me giving the spiel of her diagnosis and the time rarara, you know,
Charlotte Fox Weber 24:39
yeah. Why do you think that it's all hormonal? I think it sounds quite reasonable.
Lauren Fenton 24:46
Agreed, yeah. Whether you're hormonal or not.
Charlotte Fox Weber 24:49
Yeah, I think that's slightly making light of it. Or like explaining yourself when you don't need to because actually, why did he need you to tell him? Why did he need to hear it from you? Was he offering you psychological feedback? I mean, a therapist, a therapist might say that and it would make sense, like, I want to hear it, in your words, rather than just what I know, from a file. But a doctor is not serving that purpose. And very often part of the pain is that you go through details where there isn't a kind of helpful feedback. It's not like, it goes into the void. It goes into the ether, and you're left like, I just said it and, and like, what do you make of it? Or like, you want something back? And I think there should always be clarified purpose, to asking those questions.
Lauren Fenton 25:45
And worse still they're asking you this, often, when your child is sat right next to us, and it making you play it out, they want to hear that all the details in case they can pick up on something additional. But your child's sitting there, whilst you're describing them in these medical terms, you know, what's in inverted commas "What's wrong with them?" And how's that going to be for a child, when they hear that again, and again, I really worry that Bea hears me saying these things. And it's, that's now how her identity, her narrative, and that experience is going to stay with her and define who she is. And it's really tricky, because you spend all this time using positive language around disability, around owning it and giving them power by owning some of those labels and knowing what they need and what they can get and all the rest of it. But when you're describing them in medical terms, it does feel quite othering and focused on what they can't do, which is it's as parents, what can we do to stop them from feeling like that and taking that into that adulthood?
Charlotte Fox Weber 26:52
I think that's a really interesting question. And to broaden it out, if, if I may, I think that core traumas can become quite foundational in our sense of self. And that can be true for children of divorce, children who have something exceptional about them, something that marks them as different. I know someone who lost a sibling at a very young age. And, and that is who he is, even though he's in his 50s. And someone else whose father died when he was a child. And it's still like, the intro of who he is. And I think, I think we get attached to our, to our kind of core struggles in a way where it's helpful if we can have a patchwork sense of meaning that it's one part. I mean, I had heart surgery when I was four and a half. And for a long time, I was used to my parents always saying that about me, it was always the first thing said, anywhere we went. And I still sometimes revert to it, where, for some reason, it can make me feel vulnerable. But then I'm not sure. I'm not sure why. And it's almost like an old habit. But it can also, it can also be a weird power move, which I know sounds very extreme. But actually, my husband is okay with me saying this, he admitted that when he was eight or nine when his father died, he felt quite powerful when he would say to people that his father had died because people were usually lost for words or kind of in awe or felt for him. But he knew that he had something to say that was quite significant and would kind of shock. And I think sometimes that's part of what makes it a thing. To kind of hold on to not not in all cases, but I think I think it's really interesting to think about the story we tell ourselves about ourself, over and over and over again, and to tell it to see what it's like to tell it from a different perspective, sometimes even breaking it up into second person, third person.
Rina Teslica 29:15
That's so funny, because when I first had Lulu and you know, like a year or so in and you're the mother of a child with a disability, it was such a negative and it was something not that I was ashamed of, but it was something I didn't want to talk about or I wouldn't bring it up. Especially when I was meeting people I didn't know but now it's like something I'm incredibly proud of. And I it's completely flipped the switch on to how I see myself how I represent myself and it's not something that is that I won't talk about or downplay or like, before, it was like, oh, yeah, I have a daughter. Yeah, she was born. She's got some, you know, issues and that's,
Charlotte Fox Weber 29:57
but you would try to minimise minimise and normalise? Yeah, and not make it the thing.
Lauren Fenton 30:05
I guess now this podcast we are, in effect owning the narrative and telling that story. And proudly, yeah, I guess it's maybe thinking of ourselves and how we've switched how we own the narrative, and helping our children to do that with their own story as they get older, in whatever way they can.
Charlotte Fox Weber 30:26
So yeah, I think it's really interesting to think about how how your children hear this story and what they choose to do with it. Even if there is a shadowy side, in fact, I would urge them to make use of the shadowy side. I just am admitting now as a teenager, especially I, I think I found it beneficial to say, I had heart surgery when I was four and a half, like, like, it actually gave me something. Yeah. And it protected me in a certain way.
Lauren Fenton 30:59
Yeah, I probably drop that in a bit with my parents divorce, something that was big in your life that had an impact on you, and being able to kind of describe that to other people. I'd like to move on to some questions from our listeners. But I think there's probably two other areas before we do one is a big emotion that I think we all feel, as parents full stop guilt, guilt, that you are not doing enough for that child to support them, you know, getting interventions, therapies, teaching them stuff, because, hey, reaching milestones is never easy. And it's really fucking hard for some kids and some milestones, and some they will never meet. But also kind of guilt, I feel guilt that I'm sometimes treating my two children differently. And then the darker girl, I guess, the shade part that you described before the guilt that you sometimes think, Wouldn't it be easier if you could just talk? Or Wouldn't it be easier if you could just learn to put your clothes on yourself? How do we get better at managing guilt? Help us, Charlotte, please.
Charlotte Fox Weber 32:03
I feel for you when you say that, and I want to shake you and and just say just don't Don't, don't feel guilty. I think that guilt is such a socially manufactured emotion. Compared to shame. It's so social and strategic. And it can even be performative. Like it can even be, especially with maternal guilt. I've found myself faking it. And I don't even realise that I'm faking it until I kind of then think about it, but like, I'm going along with pretending to feel guilty about something I don't actually feel guilty about. And I think it's a bit of a sneaky emotion that wears costumes, and we need to be smart about guilt. Because it's, it's a bit of a shit stir. Like,
Lauren Fenton 33:04
I like that! Go away you shit stirrer!
Charlotte Fox Weber 33:07
And when, when you're dealing with something that requires true remorse, it feels really different. When you have actually made a mistake, and I think, I mean, I'm in favour of regret, which is, for some reason, not acceptable, like guilt. bugout everyone should have it, especially mother's regret, have no regrets. Like, I don't know why regret has gotten so left out, but like, regret is a lot more honest. Yeah, I think like, sometimes I simply regret something. But actually, with the guilt thing, like, that's when I get myself into trouble. And when people get themselves into trouble and bend over backwards or overcompensate or act out or shut down. It's It's an emotion that is just full of disguises. So what is it covering up? Really, I would, I would kind of try to take away the costumes and see what's underneath.
Lauren Fenton 34:13
Yeah, and I guess it can connect back to some of the things that we were talking about earlier. So you might as a mom feel guilt for not doing enough but you will tell yourself that you feel guilt for not doing enough. But really, perhaps what you need to be doing is asking for more help, so that you can do all the things that you want to do. You know, I feel like there's I like that idea of kind of analysing what is it really trying to tell me so? Yeah. Did I make some wrong choices there? Is that one I'm feeling guilty about? Or is it..
Charlotte Fox Weber 34:43
But did you? Or did you do the best you could? Actually it's a hard situation. Yeah. Because I mean, one of the weird things about life is the people who should feel guilty. Tend not to, and then people who haven't really done anything terribly wrong, are the guilt ridden ones. I mean, I feel like it is something that can, it can make you play small. And I think that's what pisses me off about guilt. That and kind of gratitude, if I sound like the Addams Family, because gratitude, although I like being appreciative and actually feeling grateful, but gratitude and guilt, if you think of the two G's, it's another way of saying, shhh... just go along with whatever you're doing, you're not doing enough and you should feel very lucky for what you do have. It doesn't really allow for protest. And I think guilt can sometimes cover up rage.
Lauren Fenton 35:52
Anger, yeah, yeah, you're right.
Rina Teslica 35:54
Definitely.
Lauren Fenton 35:55
I like that. Yeah, okay, so fuck the two G's. Yeah, that's some weird connotation. But let's just say anyway.
Lauren Fenton 36:13
You hear a lot about post traumatic growth. But when you've got a kid that's going through, you know, might be going through lots of surgeries or things are happening on and on, it's not finished. It's not a post. It's not something that's happened and it's static. How does one cope with trauma or deal with trauma, both for yourself and the child? If it's ongoing?
Charlotte Fox Weber 36:39
I think, again, with great difficulty, and
Lauren Fenton 36:46
thanks for the honesty.
Charlotte Fox Weber 36:47
And I think I think that the pressure to flourish sounds quite annoying, if you are supposed to kind of have the best attitude ever. I. I feel like that could be burdensome. And, and sometimes, I mean, I'm in favour of post traumatic growth. It doesn't mean it has to kind of follow a timeline. Because I think, I think along with gratitude, and all the bad Gs, there's a lot of pressure to let go and to move on. And how do you do that when it's still happening when it's playing out when it is no end in sight? There's no end in sight. And it's relentless, and the shape keeps changing. And if you feel like you've used up the kind of dramatic space, but it's still happening. I think one of the things that happens, that's really difficult when it comes to getting help and support is that people have a degree of almost ghoulish fascination with other people's sorrows. Yeah. And it's limited. And when the kind of dramatic arc has finished for them, it may still be going on for you. And you're still living it day in and day out. And they've stopped giving themselves goosebumps by making grand romantic gestures to be helpful. But there is a kind of tenacity required for for just continuing to deal with pain and sorrow. And I think, I think sometimes that is the growth. And actually I like a line of Freud's. I know Freud, isn't controversial name to ever say now, but he said, where we cannot fly, we must limp. And I think sometimes letting yourself limp along is heroic, and all you can do.
Rina Teslica 38:43
I've certainly felt like that many times in the last seven years. If you just
Lauren Fenton 38:48
keep on limping, yeah, keep on trucking. Yeah, keep on trucking! Yes, exactly. Thank you, Charlotte. I think we could probably I mean, we are actually on a couch for our listeners, we and I feel like we this was just like a taster session, we're gonna have to find out your hourly rates and come back. Yeah. We could stay here a week. And that's been really, really interesting. I'd now like to kind of put a few questions to you that people have wrote in. So the first one from Olivia is how do you deal with your own emotional dysregulation when you're dealing with a child that has a lot of emotional dysregulation? So it's so hard not to get triggered and snap? And then here comes that word again? Then how do you deal with the guilt afterwards?
Charlotte Fox Weber 39:33
Great questions. I think that first of all, unless you're robotic, I certainly uncomfortably relate to getting dysregulated when children are dysregulated.
Lauren Fenton 39:46
Yeah. It's that "CALM DOWN….Oh!”
Charlotte Fox Weber 39:51
but acknowledging the separateness. And in a way, this space between self and other I think is Oh, was useful that you were not emotionally responsible for anyone, including your child, which sounds kind of stark, but it was this supervisor who said to me years ago, you're responsible to people, but you're not responsible for people. And that applies for absolutely everyone. And even when it's your child, and it's painful, and you can see that your child is suffering, I mean, it can feel unbearable, but it's also not you. And I think I think that having that kind of internal boundary can be helpful. And it doesn't mean that you don't feel it, it doesn't mean that you don't empathise or try to offer solutions. But you acknowledge the separateness and the lines of demarcation.
Lauren Fenton 40:56
That's really interesting, because I think, as a parent, that's really hard, just full stop. And it you know, as I guess, it becomes more apparent as your children get older, especially like if I'm thinking of my older daughter, on her path, she, you know, she's very independent now and fiercely opinionated, and you see, you know, that
Rina Teslica 41:15
I wonder where she gets that?
Lauren Fenton 41:17
Haha. well, and that differentiation is very clear. But I think it's really important to remember that separation, when you might have a child that's nonverbal, or you know, isn't kind of developing in the same neurotypical path. But you've still got to really hang on to the fact that you're separate and their emotions are different, and they're going through different things.
Charlotte Fox Weber 41:36
But when you've been someone's advocate, of course, it's going to be spongy, in meshed boundaries, and you're, you're mentalizing. for them, you're verbalising for them, you're communicating for them. Of course, it's going to be blurred boundaries. So I also think that dysregulation happens, so to the second part of the question, like, just give yourself a massive hug. And self compassion is a very cheesy term, but it's a really nice one. Thanks. There's an old Sex in the City episode where Charlotte? Both remember, yeah. After after one of her children ruins her dress. Who doesn't have that, like, on a daily basis? I mean, also, it's all dis regulating? So yeah, guilt is really too strict already. However, dysregulated Do you feel?
Lauren Fenton 42:39
Yeah. Great.
Rina Teslica 42:42
And another one from Caroline, how do you deal with overwhelm, and burnout?
Charlotte Fox Weber 42:47
Those are such big and relatable concepts that I struggle with. all the time, partly because I like being overwhelmed. So there's a weird ambivalence I have towards it from not overwhelmed then what like, I might be empty!
Lauren Fenton 43:09
It's how you function. It's how you get your energy and drive. Yeah,
Charlotte Fox Weber 43:12
yeah. Burnout, I think can come in really sneaky ways. It can apply to motherhood, I think there should be parental burnout as a thing. Like, why is it only in the workplace that it's used? I mean, I don't know if it's less true, more used these days, in communities that you're part of maternal burnout, but like, why is that not an official diagnosis? Yeah, yeah. I think the reason it isn't, is because we have no one to go to, like, there is no line manager who is gonna say like, oh, okay, we'll get someone
Lauren Fenton 43:53
get some paid leave. Exactly.
Charlotte Fox Weber 43:56
It stops with us. But like, we're also all of the hierarchy and like, so maternal burnout, if it were something that was officially recognised, I'm not sure what the support system would.
Lauren Fenton 44:10
There are short breaks and things for parents who have kids with disabilities. And I, you know, we'll put some notes in the show notes for anyone who doesn't know about those. So I think there is recognition that people do need time to rest, particularly if they're looking at your child that needs kind of constant around the clock care. But yeah, I agree. I don't think there is enough. There's an assumption that you will just keep going, you'll keep on limping. Yeah. And sometimes, like, I guess it comes back to asking for help as well and saying, hands up, I need a break.
Charlotte Fox Weber 44:42
Yeah, well, so I'm really in favour, as kind of contradictory as it sounds, when life is unbearably full and the to do list is overwhelming. And I'm time impoverished. That is always when I decide to do something frivolous. something utterly unnecessary that I don't have to do simply because I want to do it. And I think a lot of times when, when we're burnt out, it's this feeling of being beholden to endless responsibilities and obligations and shoulds. And even something like going to a friend's birthday, I should go I should I have to get a gift. Like it stops being joyful. And sometimes insisting on frivolity is actually a light relief and being playful. I think playfulness is an antidote to burnout. And it just adds a different dimension. Yeah,
Rina Teslica 45:43
I will live more frivolously
Charlotte Fox Weber 45:45
It's always possible every day, even if it's five minutes, it doesn't have to be a dramatic overhaul of your whole life. It doesn't have to be redefining the mission statement of your core values, but letting playfulness matter to you. And not just facilitating play, because we know mothers are great at facilitating play and creativity. But facilitating is not the same as actually being playful.
Lauren Fenton 46:10
I like that. And I think it's like a reset, isn't it? I feel like sometimes as well. I think of parenting and Bea and all the things that we do. And I have endless lists about you know, people I need to call or appointments we need to rearrange or things we need to do or things I want to do for her. It's quite nice, on occasion to just go right. I'm going to make an excuse. We're going to sack off the physiotherapy today. And we're going to do this instead. And I know that's not always possible. Yeah, that bit of fun, or a change can be really, really liberating and resetting.
Charlotte Fox Weber 46:46
Break the rules in a fairly harmless way.
Rina Teslica 46:50
Yeah. I totally see that. Yeah.
Charlotte Fox Weber 46:53
And it's kind of expressing your own individuality in a way when when you stop just going along with the shoulds.
Rina Teslica 46:58
Yeah, I think because especially like, being a parent of a child with a disability, you have so many rules in life can't do this. Can't do that. So we're big in my household of just like, fucking off and just doing random shit for like, fuck it. Because it's like, there are so many barriers in our lives that, you know, yeah. So I'm totally
Lauren Fenton 47:21
I love that. We've got another question. One from Jen. She's interested in the connection that we share with our children about how our anxiety goes into them and vice versa. Conversely, when we heal ourselves, it helps them too. I know it happens and works. But can Charlotte explain more of the how
Charlotte Fox Weber 47:40
I think it's incredibly self aware as a question. I wish I could just send that to my whole family. Extended family, I think that it's easily forgotten that our anxiety has an impact on others. And that it goes both ways. I think that containment can be a lot of pressure on the mother at the same time. So there are moments when you're going to kind of feel leaky and wait, and it comes out and gets projected. I think honesty and awareness can be a relief for a child as well, sometimes saying, I think I may have put that on you. And that was about me. It wasn't actually about you. I recently was called out by my eight year old for just projecting an anxiety onto him by telling him repeatedly not to worry about something. And he said, You have told me so many times not to worry about this, that I feel like you're demanding that I worry about it. And I wasn't worrying about it. But me. And now I am. Yeah, put me back in my place. But just being aware of it and seeing how it happens is the best we can do. I don't think that it's something that requires perfectionism. I mean, if the goal is to simply never project anxiety onto your child, I think that that's too big an ask.
Lauren Fenton 49:23
Yeah, it's not real. They need to see you in all your
Rina Teslica 49:27
variations.
Charlotte Fox Weber 49:28
Yeah, well, and I think sometimes seeing emotions and parents is actually validating and gives you permission.
Lauren Fenton 49:36
We've got another question from Natalie, how do you deal with a partner that's slowly disconnecting from you and your child and is struggling to come to terms with the reality of what you're fighting? Oh, I know. It's a tough one. So I guess it's about people pulling apart over a situation where they've got a child with a disability.
Charlotte Fox Weber 50:02
Yeah, and that certainly happens. And it can be unbearable to even want to acknowledge that it's happening. But I think it should also be normalised. I think that connection itself. I mean, I am a bit of a connection Nymphomaniac, if I can say.
Lauren Fenton 50:21
G spots, nymphomaniac, it's all coming out Charlotte.
Charlotte Fox Weber 50:28
Yeah. But it's become like a superfood, it's quinoa, or kale. And then if you don't connect, there's this panic because it feels terrifying. And the thing is, disconnect happens. And it is, it's really hard. But it also is survivable. And I think we should get more comfortable with talking about disconnection. Rather than just "connection, it's the best, it's the best", because we don't have permanent connection with just one person throughout life. And whether that's your child, or your spouse, or your best friend or a parent, I mean, disconnection happens, when it starts to become a full severance, I think it can be incredibly disconcerting, and naming it is hard and can be scary, but it's also really important. I also respect people who, who want to hold on to hope, even if it's unrealistic. I mean, I knew someone in her 80s, who believed that she was going to have a romance with a man in his 40s, who was a well known movie star, she really wanted to hold on to the hope that it was going to happen. So I don't think it's always necessary to beat people over the head with likely reality, we can, we can have fantasy, but expecting something to be okay, if it is not necessarily going that way. It's pressure. I think a lot of it is about uncertainty as well. And it's very difficult as a mother to allow for uncertainty. And sometimes we want to kind of have a grand plan for our kid. And it can be, it can be a little bit humbling to say I don't know how that's gonna work out. And if you feel a disconnection that's pervasive in your relationship, and, and the kid is possibly feeling it too. It may be uncertain for what that is going to mean. Like there are time periods of disconnection, and then reconnection, and reconnection can be so joyous, I mean, I'm a big fan of rupture and repair. And sometimes, when you disconnect in the relationship, and then you come back together, it's better than ever. And you needed to have a bit of a rupture in order to get to the repair. So it can mean many things. But I think sometimes just acknowledging the uncertainty that that it's not all guaranteed to be exactly perfect.
Lauren Fenton 53:06
I think we get good at managing uncertainty actually, is that what surprises are going to come your way or things left field are going to happen. It
Charlotte Fox Weber 53:17
surprises?
Lauren Fenton 53:18
Like new diagnoses or new challenges, right? Yeah. Or maybe medical interventions or surgeries? Yeah. And pop are ultimately not having certainty around the child's future. But the reality is, nobody has certainty over their child's future or what that childhood and adulthood is going to look like. So trying to get comfortable living on that. Yeah, any words on that?
Charlotte Fox Weber 53:48
You are so right, that no one has certainty. No one has certainty about what their relationship will be like in 10 years time either. And yet we forget that so easily. So you may have a huge advantage of actually knowing how uncertain life can be. Yeah, learning to live with uncertainty. Yeah. Because there is a certain ignorance of thinking that things just go a certain way. If you have a child who hasn't been kind of labelled as anything. Other. Yeah. There's, there's no sense of major surprises ahead. Yeah. Yeah.
Rina Teslica 54:26
That's so funny, because, I mean, it's like an anecdote, but I struggled with this. I like to have like plans. I like to like know what's happening, I think was when we got Lua's diagnosis. I wanted to know, what can she do? What can't she do? What does this mean? And they were like, I don't know. Like, she's very rare. We don't have any idea, which was very difficult for me. But then you go through acceptance and you move on. And I was still struggling at that point, but we were in a black cab. And the cabbie was like, Oh, she's so sweet. And he was talking about her and then he dropped. He's like, Oh, I have a daughter, she doesn't have disabilities, but she struggled very much with mental health and had very big issues. And Arbs and I left that that cab thinking, Yes, we have something that's very uncertain. But here's this cabbie who had a daughter without, you know, disabilities or special needs, but then ended up going down this path with something so uncertain. People go through shit, man. And it's not just you,
Charlotte Fox Weber 55:25
perspective gets so easily lost. Yeah widening the vista is always helpful. There can be incredible self involvement with suffering as well. Like when you're going through a shit time you hate yourself, and you're all you can think about. It's really quite demanding and draining. So having those fresh encounters I mean, that can even be a little bit playful, like talking to a stranger.
Rina Teslica 55:56
Don't know what they could tell you.
Lauren Fenton 55:56
Oh, yeah, exactly, like talking to you, Charlotte, who is no longer a stranger. And I'm sorry, but we're kind of running out of time. I think we could talk about so many more themes with you. But
Charlotte Fox Weber 56:07
It's great talking with you guys. And I have, I've loved the unexpected places we've gone to
Lauren Fenton 56:15
same. thank you so much. Yeah, thank
Lauren Fenton 56:20
Thank you so much for listening to the fucking normal podcast. We love making this podcast. Yes, we do. We are part of a much bigger team, almost exclusively all parents of disabled children. And our goal is to reach as many people as possible and create a community of support for parents and carers who share our experiences.
Rina Teslica 56:41
So if you've liked what you've heard, please like and subscribe so that we can reach out to more people. You can find more information on this and other episodes at fucking normal podcast.com That's f k ing normal podcast.com you can join us on Facebook and on Instagram at fucking normal underscore podcast. That's f k ing normal underscore podcast. You can get all the links and more information in the show notes below.
Lauren Fenton 57:05
So thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. We'll see you next time. Byeee
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
