Epiosde 14: Intersectionality, community & representation with Tinuke Awe

~music - “Wake me up, loud as clouds..all my love for you. You’re a dreamer, I am too. it’s f**king normal we could rule the world”...

Lauren Fenton 0:16

This is the fucking normal podcast, the cheers, tears and Friday night beers for parenting disabled children. I'm Rina, and I'm Lauren.

Rina Teslica 0:26

And we're both mothers to daughters with special needs. Parenting a disabled child can often feel difficult to navigate. If this is you, you're not alone. We're here to share unique parenting stories, and to ask about the things that we've learned and are still learning.

Lauren Fenton 0:40

Prepare to sometimes laugh, sometimes cry, but hopefully leave with a shot of optimism in your arm. And don't forget we are talking from a parent's perspective, we would never presume to talk on behalf of a disabled child or adult. So expect bad language, and quite frankly, some brutal honesty.

Rina Teslica 1:00

Because really, what the fuck is normal anyway?

Lauren Fenton 1:15

Welcome back to another episode of the fucking normal Podcast. Today we're going to be talking about intersectionality and more specifically creating community and representation. First, a quick definition: 'Intersectionality' is about the interconnected nature of social categorisations such as race, class, gender or ability, which are regarded as creating overlapping or interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage. Rina and I are both aware of our own privilege and the lens and experience of the world that we bring to parenting disabled children. We are both white, straight and cis gendered. We have financial and educational advantages. We have homes, supportive families and security, not to mention the fact that we are both neurotypical or non disabled. Our children may carry the labels of disabled, or SEND and may be female. But they also have all of the advantages that we've passed on to them by the luck that they were born with. They may be discriminated against because of their disabilities, but it's very unlikely that they will ever be discriminated against because of their race. We want a world without prejudice that doesn't judge and disadvantaged people based on protected characteristics. But sadly, this is not the world we live in. We should all be aware of our own privileges and challenge the systems that continue to enable inequalities to prevail. What if the community or role models for your identity aren't represented in the media or easy to find? As we've said many times before, community is so key to helping you feel less isolated as a parent to children with disabilities. And it's so so important that our children are able to see themselves, that role models stories and resources exist that reflect their identity. Our guest today is an absolute force when it comes to challenging these inequalities and making change.

Rina Teslica 3:00

So our guest today is the incredible Tinuke Awe. Social entrepreneur, black maternal health campaigner and early years diversity and SEND inclusion champion. She was named British Vogue Force for change in 2021. And she really really is! Tinuke earned this accolade as the co founder of five times more a campaign dedicated to improving the maternal outcomes of black women. She has two children Ezekiel age five who has autism and Eden age three, when her eldest is equal was born to UK was frustrated by not seeing any black mums at the parent group she attended. So she started her own black Parenting Network mums and team, a now 12,000 strong community. Since her son's autism diagnosis, as if she wasn't busy enough, Tinuke has been on a mission to help other black mums navigate the journey of parenting neurodiverse children and has also started a business focused on inclusive educational flashcards because as Tinuke rightly puts it, representation matters to all. Welcome Tinuke, we are so excited to have you on the podcast.

Tinuke Awe 4:02

Oh my gosh, what an intro, guys.

Lauren Fenton 4:07

I mean, you're amazing. Like, we wanted to talk to you and so glad that we could make this work because I know you're extremely busy. Not to mention the fact it's the summer holidays at the moment. How's that going?

Tinuke Awe 4:21

Yeah, I mean, it's just a pile of dust left is just, I can't these kids, I love them, but they are literally driving me up the wall. Do you know what like? It's so difficult when you're juggling, trying to like work and just there just being a lack of childcare options. And by design, you know, both of the grandmas are away. They're on holiday. They're both in London. They did it on purpose. Of course they did. Because Why are you both in Nigeria at the same time? Could you not just go another time? What's up? So, the mums that are my normal form of childcare, at least I can, I can hack it for the weekdays, but the weekends, I can just, you know, ship them off. They're both gone. So it's 24/7. Come back in three weeks, I'm going to be a pile of clothes just left.

Rina Teslica 5:22

We feel yer. I've had to bribe my mother in law to come. So she's she's here for the next three weeks. ever grateful? Imagine, I can't imagine. Anyway, can we talk about you and your parenting journey? And your kids and motherhood? What is that? Like? How has that been? Give us the goss.

Tinuke Awe 5:47

Or the goss... motherhood, I would say is such a beautiful roller coaster. I say it's beautiful. Because you've got the moments where they do things and you're like you just love your come here, give me a hug. And then there are other times where you're like, get me out of here. Just get out, obviously, I just think parenthood is a challenge in itself. There's no rulebook, right? There's no one size fits all. And everyone and their dog on Instagram can be telling you one thing, and you can read 1,000,001 books and memes and quotes. And whilst you can relate to it, it's just, it's not what's happening in your home right there and then say like, every situation is new, and you're just like, Oh, my God, Well, God, what am I doing? And so yeah, it can be beautiful, but it can be challenging and frustrating. And all these things. And I think sometimes we're just we aren't even allowed to voice those frustrations. Do you get what I mean? It's almost like, well, you should be grateful for what you have. I'm not saying I'm not very fond saying it's hard. Yeah.

Rina Teslica 6:56

Yeah, that's why we did this podcast.

Lauren Fenton 7:00

Yeah, it's hard. It's hard at every stage as well, I think there's like, I think there's an assumption as well by a lot of parents that like, Oh, this is a really tricky, you know, getting to the next six months, and then it'll be fine. And particularly when you have a child that has, you know, is autistic, or has a disability like that is going to create challenges for potentially longer or different points of that roller coaster will be maybe higher, and some of them will be lower. scarier, too. Yeah. So yeah. Tell us a bit about so Ez is autistic, can you tell us a bit about like that journey and his diagnosis?

Tinuke Awe 7:39

Yeah, sure. So I got two kids. Ezekiel's five, Eden is three, Ezekiel was diagnosed with autism in on the 24th of July 2021, that data is etched in my brain because that my life changed forever. You know what I mean? It's not, it's not that it was a diagnosis that I was particularly surprised and shocked about. Because obviously, you work your way up to a diagnosis, you've got to see all the professionals you've got to, you know, put in all the requests and do all the things. So it's not like, it came as a shock. But it did at the same time, I don't know, what led us to the diagnosis is so obviously, Ezekiel's my first child. And I noticed quite early on that he wasn't speaking, but it wasn't just the speech. There were other patterns of behaviour that had me a little bit worried, as he was a clever lad, very clever. But he just couldn't express himself, as well as the other children in my, you know, in my circle could and I realised that quite early on.

And so when he was about 18 months old, and I realised that, you know, sometimes he would respond to His name, sometimes he wouldn't. I know you can hear me. But um, you know, he'd just be in his own world, you know, spinning toys spinning around, running up and down. So what I now know to be stimming, running up and down, I'm like oh my god this boy's got so much energy, he's not communicating with me. Huge attachment issues, like dropping him off at nursery was like, I actually went back to work a lot later than planned because I wasn't comfortable leaving him in any kind of childcare setting because I was like, Look, I don't know. I don't really know. I know, it's a bit different. I'm not when he's not communicating. So I don't I wasn't comfortable leaving him, you know, in any childcare setting until I found the right one. So I even went back to work quite late. So yeah, like he would cry. Loads. Whenever I leave him at the door. You know, like so many of these things. And I got it got to just before the two year checkup, and then I'd heard that the waiting lists for speech and language sessions were like, six months long at that time, this is before COVID said If you've got to wait at least six months, so I went into a drop in, in my local area, and I was like, okay, my child's almost two, and he's not really speaking, is this something to be worried about? And everyone's like, you know, before the speech before I went to the drop in, a lot of people are giving me the, he's a boy, boy's talk later. You know, he's fine. He can hear you. If you give him instructions, he can, you know, can just about do you know, so it's just like, everyone was like, Don't worry, it's fine. But I guess in my gut, I kind of like I was like, I'm not going to do the wait and see approach. I'm going to check. And see, that's always my thing. Like, don't wait and see. Just check and see there's no harm if, if, if there's nothing wrong, there's nothing wrong. But if there is, you're, you're already one step ahead. So I've gone into the drop in sessions. And they were like, Oh, we're going to refer you on for an actual speech and language sessions. And I was like, okay, great, because at the two year checkup, they were like, oh, you know, we should refer you and I was like, I'm one step ahead of you bitch! Yeah. Do you imagine like by the two year checkup, if I'm waiting another six months, he'll be two and a half. Whereas I've gone I've gone in a lot earlier. And just after two, he started receiving those speech and language sessions, which are crap, by the way, but at least afforded the opportunity for him to be referred on to a paediatrician now, at this point, he's about two and a half, almost three, I think. Timelines are a bit crazy, because this was just before the pandemic, he was about two and a half, I would say.

Erm so we were referred onto the paediatrician who at first wasn't worried. She wasn't worried at all. She was like, Look, I've seen the speech and language report. I've looked at the nursery reports, I've spoken to nursery I've done all these things. Not quite worried. We'll give it six months, boom, pandemic hit. And everything was online. So we've spoken to her six, the six months check in and she was like, Yeah, you know what, we'll, we'll, we'll give it another six months, you know, it's zoom, I can't really say much, because I haven't seen him in person. And so yeah, gave it another six months. And by then I think we're up to a year. So he was about three and a half by this point. And he had not really pandemic times obviously had not really seen anyone speach and language was non existent because we was on a waiting list. And it was, you know, just lock downs and just a terrible time. But I eventually managed to see the paediatrician in person. And yeah, I should say, so I saw I saw her twice. The first time, she wasn't worried. Second time on Zoom. She was like, you know, I got I got to see him in person. I can't say anything. But you should start looking at an EHCP. And I was like, Okay, what would that be for? So she couldn't say without seeing him that he's autistic, but she was like, You should I think you should try and, you know, start start start going down that route. So he actually saw him in person, I think it was about, there was less than an hour that she was in the room with him for as couple of other people in the room. And I didn't really I didn't actually realise that that was the assessment. But she had actually been doing assessments this whole time and gathering all the data from what I've said and what the nursery said and yeah, the reports. So then she was like, Okay, well, I'm diagnosing him as autistic. And I was like, Okay,

Lauren Fenton 13:26

wow, okay.

Rina Teslica 13:26

How did you feel like, validated or

Tinuke Awe 13:30

I guess, because she mentioned it kind of mentioned it previously. So I guess I kind of knew, but I didn't really know, I was on that journey. But I didn't know what the end result was gonna be. I hadn't really been around many autistic children by that point, and you see the signs, but you're just like, Okay, I just maybe need to hear it from a professional. So I felt fine. You know, I felt fine. I've been doing the research, you know, you kind of hyper focused on like, what is autism doing? And is it gonna affect him? Is it Is he gonna be okay? So yeah, I had that kind of initial, like, oh, this is fine. It's fine. I remember going that day, she said, Your son is still the same child that walked into this room, like, it's actually not changed anything, what we're going to do now, I'll just give him his formal diagnosis, and I'll send you often to some other people. So at the time is really grinding his teeth, you need to see a specialist dentist. You need to see a nutritionist because he just wasn't eating very well at all. And a few other people, but yeah, she was just like, yeah, like you're. Get back on your way. Okay, cool. I remember sitting in the car and speaking to like all the family, and just like, I don't even think breaking the news. But yeah, but like just he's got diagnosis now. And I remember saying to the nursery, Oh, yeah. By the way, he's got a diagnosis. Well, that was kind of that was quick. That was kind of smooth and I was like, Yeah, but I but we weren't expecting that, but okay, like, we'll take whatever help comes, you know from it now. And I must mention actually, we had the best nursery so before his diagnosis and obviously with the help of the paediatrician, she was quite helpful. She had mentioned that Ezekiel needs support in nursery. So before the even an EHCP, we had an IEP or we had something in place in our, in our borough to help him get one to one support. So he was already that was in place before the formal diagnosis. So this the nursery were already on it. They're brilliant. They're brill that is where my daughter goes now and I'm, I'm just like, What am I going to do? I stop having children and I can't send them here. That's so good.

Rina Teslica 15:41

That's such a good because we don't always hear that. school plays and nurseries, uh, you know, so this is really refreshing. And

Tinuke Awe 15:48

I know, I think that's part of the reason why we're here today. And and then I'm actually his story has just been so phenomenal because he we had such great support from the nursery. So yeah, he was already getting one to one support. And with the diagnosis he got, it was more full time. And yeah, we that was it. We've got our EHCP and he's it he was he started Primary School last September. That was a journey in itself, I guess. I think the last year has really shocked me. I never put limits on Ezekiel. Never. So I must mention, obviously, we've gone for the speech language because he was completely non verbal. We were, we were doing Makaton we were using, you know, some visual aids, not representative ones because they weren't any other time.

Lauren Fenton 16:41

We'll come back to that in a second. Yeah.

Tinuke Awe 16:44

Come back to that. But um, we're using all that kind of stuff. But actually, it wasn't until he started primary school that his words really started to come through. So he was exhibiting a lot of echolalia. Like this time last year, if you ask Ezekiel how are you? He'll say, Ezekiel, how are you? You couldn't have a conversation with him. He was just saying words and repeating that phrases from like TV and stuff, you know, typical echolalia. Now you ask him as he can, how are you? He'll go? I'm good. So I think, again, he might have he might have learned that might that might just be but I think he's getting the whole back and forth kind of conversation like since that in school, his language has really exploded. You can't kind of have a conversation with him just yet, but his language is getting better should I say? So he can say he wants to go to the toilet. And that's even a thing in itself. Ezekiel was still in nappies.

I was so nervous about sending him to school because it's a mainstream school. They're brilliant school again, I looked, I did my research, looked at the schools in the area and made sure that I felt comfortable sending him there and I got a good vibe, because there are some schools that you know, would with some autism DSP units. And I would ask questions, and the head teachers were looking at me like what you're talking about? Or they just, they just, it wasn't giving and I was like, There's no way I'm sending my child here. No, absolutely no way. So when I've got a good feeling from a really brilliant school, really small school kind of family kind of feel vibe to it. I've come in with the with my, my iPad and my 25 questions. So Head teacher have you had a child like is what was the progress like, you know, what's your bullying policy or all of the questions? And she's gone? Yep, yep, yep. Yep. Yep, she's answered everything perfectly. I'm like, You were waiting for me weren't you finally because at the end of the school year, we was we had a moment actually made the head teacher and we were just I shed a tear, she shed a tear, you're like, I can't believe this is the same way from last year. Like he's, he's actually really like being in school and getting that one to one support and just being around other children has really helped him because he's copying them, which is great because he's copy going to the toilet. He's copying play. He's playing with others. He's got friends, he's using his words. He's a totally different child. And I'm just grateful for that. But I know that's not everyone's kind of experience at school. I know that's not everyone's experience at mainstream school. But yeah, I'm just grateful touch with that. Everything's been going really well so far. My guy can count to 100. He can write his name! I'm like who are you you? Oh, my God.

Rina Teslica 19:46

Yeah, hitting them milestones. Like

Tinuke Awe 19:50

I'm really proud of him. And everyone's always like, you know, on Instagram because I share my journey quite a lot on Instagram. And I know we'll go into this but I share My journey with Ezekiel quite a lot and everyone's like, Oh, you know, he's so brilliant, he's so amazing, but you know what is, it's, it's good on you, as well as a parent as a mum, because you stuck in there and you, you kind of didn't let like the World Report, if you like, determine what you do with your son and how you treat him, you just went, you did it, and you're giving me so much hope. And that makes me feel like so blessed. Because in our community, like I say, in the black community, like autism is heavily stigmatised. There was even a viral video on the weekend someone sent me of the pastor praying for a child's you know, binding or casting out autism because they don't believe in it. It's scary stuff. And I was like, you know, what is I'm a Christian is one thing, praying for your child, you can pray for your child, you can pray that they will find favour, you can pray that, you know, like, whenever they get out into the world, like good things will happen to them and stuff like that you could whatever your that spiritual higher power being is, you can pray to that person, but then to start saying that finding and casting our autism like it doesn't exist, and don't bother going to the therapist because they don't know nothing. You've got to, you know, pray to God and fast and everything's gonna go away. That's scary. And that's the kind of community I'm from. So I think in me sharing. Look, autism is not a death sentence. It's not the end of the world. Do you know what I mean? Sharing the high sharing the low sharing kind of my journey, it's helping other people to see that actually. Maybe autism isn't as scary as people make it out to be. You know. And for me, that's important, because I remember when, two, three years ago, when I was looking for representation, and people that look like me who had autistic children that looked like my son, it was very few and far between. And that's quite scary, because you'll think I'm the only one or it doesn't, it doesn't apply to me. Because you type in autism. It's white children that come up, it's white men come up. If they don't look like me and my child at all. They don't it doesn't. It's only in the last, I'd say because of Tik Tok, and maybe because of the pandemic, that people are now more vocal about that. But before they're nothing

Lauren Fenton 22:20

and and did you because you already had mums and Tea which was your community of parents, that when you say you're looking for it, like obviously looking for more black autistic children, and I guess what did you go to that network as well? Did you find were there autistic kids within the Parenting Network or kids that were perhaps maybe without diagnosis, but we're going mums that were going through similar experience to you. How did that evolve? Kind of see.

Tinuke Awe 22:47

that's only because I fought through mums and tea, I've been able to build a network? Yeah, yeah. So I can I can, I'm in a position where I can be like, Oh, my God, I remember, when I was going through the EHCP process, there was a little bit of it that I just had a little bit of an issue with a little bit of a problem. Because the borough was being stupid, you know, you know, it's like, Wait, yeah. And I've put on my Instagram, does anyone know any educational psychologists or any people that work in x, y, and z, and the influx that I got, like, the way the community supported me and poured into me and gave me all of the information they had, or ex teachers or ex nursery workers with experience, like, Sure. I mean, I was like, I just put out a story. And I've got literally like, minimum 50 people coming back to me, that's only because I've got this huge platform. If I didn't have that, where would I begin to look? Where would I go? Who could I turn to? And so it's important that when I have these kind of issues, or if anything happens, and it's, you know, to do that, that can help someone else. I'm putting that out there. And I'm hoping that other people can connect to one another as well, because I it just, I can't just be this person,

Lauren Fenton 24:06

It's no all up you know, Down, to you.

Tinuke Awe 24:08

But I think it's important, because there are, there are now that I've built the network, I can see that there are so many mums out there that are trying to share that knowledge to bring people together. And it's looking a lot better than it did three, four years ago.

Lauren Fenton 24:25

Yeah. And it absolutely shouldn't be down to you just being on having that network. You know, how many people are moms and to the community now, but it's huge, right? But isn't there like now a specific branch that's relating to parenting kids with special needs?

Tinuke Awe 24:41

I'm definitely really passionate about that. So mums and tea overall, it will it started off because like you mentioned in the bio, I just wanted to find a network of parents that looked like me. And there's a reason for that. It's not saying that I can't go to any, you know, parent group and and relate, I have done that I do do that. But it's important to note that I'll give you an example. I live in a very what you call "urban area", heavily populated with a lot of black people but when I was going to let the baby baby, you know, stay in place, then these group sessions and stuff, I was the only like, young black man. And that's that was worrying to me, because I'm like, okay, I can I can talk to all of you, that's fine. We're all pretty much at the same age, and we can talk about stuff, but fundamentally embracing a black man. Hmm, there are certain conversations that you're just not going to be able to understand. And that's just fundamentally and you always seek people that look like you, right, that have similar backgrounds to you and can understand where you're coming from. So it's not that I felt othered but I thought like, where are my people kind of, you know,

Lauren Fenton 25:44

fundamentally about having a community that is, you know, of people that are coming from the same place as you like, I mean, that more in terms of like, you know, life experience and cultural background.

Tinuke Awe 26:16

cultural background, absolutely, you'll never understand what it's like to have a Nigerian mother saying to you give the baby water, when the wife has told you, dude, categorically do not keep the child water before you know for for six months, and then we come from it's fine. You give them one time they don't die. So it's like, what like, what's up? Like, who do I listen to? I'm confused. What do I do? Because I remember putting out Instagram and everyone's like, laughing. But a lot of people were like, Yeah, I get this, this, this is this is real life. But there are deeper issues, there are deeper issues, there are deeper things than just that. And I think it's important to have that sense of community. So that's why I set up mums and tea. Because I wanted to connect to people and connect with people as the first one out of my friends to have a baby. And I just I didn't want to be a loner and I wanted other people to connect to one another. That's how that started. But back to your question in terms of like, it's, it's important, because we've got that we had the face to face events. And we start building our community on like Instagram and Facebook physical. And during the pandemic, and lock downs, we went online. So we've got online community, we've got online platform, we've got different groups within that. And one of the subgroups is parents, for SEN. Parents. And a lot of the questions that go in there is like an upgraded version of a WhatsApp group chat, if that makes sense. Like, it doesn't feel as Oh my God, there's so many messages, you can put like topics and it's like really? Yeah, quite sophisticated. And people can just put in questions and people can answer based on the experiences. But I think it's just so important to have that space, because SEN parenting is just another level. And you add in being black. Yeah. So,

Tinuke Awe 26:17

and it's beautiful, what you've done, honestly, beautiful. I'm in awe of you. So yeah,

Tinuke Awe 26:49

what challenges and issues are coming up for others within that SEND community? If you are happy to talk about these, and you don't know how much is ableism, or the fact that we're in a society that has entrenched systemic racism, you know, what, what sort of challenges are you seeing? And to what extent are they the result of covert or overt racism?

Tinuke Awe 28:47

I think. I think some of the issues are twofold, probably three, or four or five fold if I really go into it, but you've got issues from within the community, and then you've got issues outside of the community that you've got to deal with, in the community stem from if you if you attend a church, or a place of religious practice, and you could potentially tell them all, you know, I feel like maybe my child is has got additional needs, or they've just got a diagnosis or anything. You could get one or two responses. That's, that's okay. That's fine, we'll pray or No, don't say that, that doesn't exist. You know, or just completely be ignored and not be supportive, be helped be shunned, you know, because your child has been rude in the service. They're trying to get on with things and they don't quite understand that you've got to make reasonable adjustments. It's, as I mentioned before, it's heavily stigmatised because a lot of people just don't understand it. They don't understand it. They might think it's the work of the devil or somebody in a village somewhere has done some black magic. And this is the result of, you know, what we're seeing, or they just don't know or don't understand it at all. And they fear it. You know, so there's a lot of fear in the community and a lot of, you know, misunderstanding. As I mentioned before, if you type in autism, you don't see many images of black people with autism, that automatically, one will just assume that's a Western condition, that's not something that affects us. That's not something that applies to us.

Rina Teslica 30:39

Or, like, we haven't been exposed to it as well, because if it's, if it's something that stigmatised, then that means it's hidden, and therefore, you're not exposed to it, and therefore you fear it. So it's like a long vicious circle,

Tinuke Awe 30:52

you know, what I'm saying the media and social media, they play a huge part in people's thinking, as well, we've got to remember. So if they're not seeing it, they don't believe it, then they fear it, because they don't know it. And then it just continues, right? Someone somewhere has to break that cycle. And I think I'm seeing a lot of parents now coming out and autistic people themselves coming out and saying, This is the real deal. This is what autism looks like. It can present differently. And all of these kinds of things. But so you've got that you've got that, you know, within the community. And it's not just church, it could be family members, too. I'll give you an example. And they've both changed. This is huge disclaimer, they have both changed in their thinking. Before anyone goes attacking my mum and my mother in law. But um, I even remember when I first told both my mom and my mother in law different occasions, both of their reactions made me quite upset. My mom was like, Oh, don't say that, God forbid, you know, automatically just rejecting it, you know, over my dead body. That's not, don't say that about my godson, that's, you know, abominations do that. No, say that about him. Don't proclaim that on his life. That's a big thing. Don't if you say it, that means it's true. So don't say it. And I was quite upset because that this is coming from someone who's quite, you're well educated, you literally just done a master's in public health. You've worked with people with additional needs, like for a long time? Why would you say this? Why Why? Why would you think this doesn't apply? What add it, please make it make sense? Is not even coming from someone that doesn't understand autism? Do you know what I mean? So she was find it very difficult at first to accept. And also, like my mother in law was no odd why me, you know, like, as if it's like a curse.

And with time, with educating, with loads of conversations and all that they both obviously change their way of thinking and how they view autism and stuff. But that's because they've been exposed to it. Now. If I didn't have a child with autism, I don't know if they would have ever got that kind of level of information. Do you know what I mean? So my, this is, and this is, this is why they say like Knowledge is power. So my mother in law works in a kschool. And she's very cognizant of this little boy, this little young boy who also has autism at dinner lady, she works in a school, and she's very cognizant of this young boy, who's autistic. Sure, like, give him little bits of bread if he's hungry, or little things. And she's always kind of like, her heart just goes out to him. Whenever he comes in the dinner line, he might not want certain foods, or she'll go and get something in the back. And she's like, that could be my that could be my God, that could be my grandson kind of thing. Whereas before, she might not have cared, she might not have known, should I just thought, well, maybe this kid is just acting up in the line. And why is this kid always got support? Like she, she, she would have just made assumptions, and she wouldn't have known. Do you know what I mean? And so it's important that we continue speaking out. And we continue having these conversations, because that's the only way we're going to spread the knowledge out there. And yeah, I'm so grateful for both of the mums journeys and how they've grown to like, learn and accept and just know more about autism and how it affects Ezekiel and how it can affect other people as well, because now they're actually looking at adults in their circles that could potentially be autistic, because that's another thing. It's not that it doesn't exist in our community. There's so many, like, when you look at like, because my mum was like, You know what, now I know what some of the signs are. There are certain people like maybe even at church, people who have grown up with, you know, that could be autistic. Maybe that explains their behaviour. You know, these are conversations I'm literally having with my mum.

Lauren Fenton 34:58

They're interesting, and you do just you just unless you're

Tinuke Awe 35:02

having these conversations you won't know. So yeah, that's that's one thing that you could come up against. I've heard people oh my gosh, I've heard people who have said their parents have gone gone to, you know, to come back home. When I say home, I mean, in the context of going like maybe, Nigeria or Ghana, wherever it may be. I've gone to pastors and ask them to for pray or pray like pray water, special water for them to pray over their child and bought them in certain things and do it. And I'm just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, is not.

Lauren Fenton 35:37

No

Tinuke Awe 35:38

It's not that deep, but because they don't know. And they fear it, they think it's something that needs to be prayed out. But so these are certain things that people are having to deal with just within their immediate kind of community, then you've got the certain health professionals. They're quick to label. And if you as a parent are being told, being shut down, oh, no, it's not autism. It's a you know, whatever, whatever. And then your child starts misbehaving, quote, unquote, in inverted commas, you know, they're stimming, or they're having a hard time or whatever, that's going to be misinterpreted as bad behaviour. Because guess what, they're already black. That's the reality. And when I say we, I need to speak to people who understand where I'm coming from, I believe that I am that I need to speak to people who understand where I'm coming from, because I need to have conversations with people who get that when I say I'm raising a black child, you know exactly what I mean. Right? The whole systemic things that go on that you actually just don't have control over. So you've got the health professionals, you've got things and people in the system who I can't even remember what the statistic is, but a black children are more likely to get a diagnosis but less likely to get the help and the support that they need, which is very, very scary. That's

Rina Teslica 37:16

That's insane if they're getting diagnosed more than

Tinuke Awe 37:19

Yeah. And those are you just think if that if they're more likely to get a diagnosis, these are the ones these are the ones that made it. Yeah. What about ones that didn't? What about ones that are yet to come? What about

Lauren Fenton 37:31

some of the stuff that you've Yeah, exactly already talked about?

Tinuke Awe 37:34

So that's hard. And then you think, so I've got a friend that works in public health. And she was telling me some stats, I love stats, although I can't remember them half of the time. But I love I'm, I'm definitely a stat woman, I love the stats. She was saying the amount of black men in the prison system and in the mental health system, you know, that actually have underlying speech or language issues, or have underlying autism, ADHD, whatever it may be, that are basically in the wrong place, because they didn't get support when they were in primary school is astonishing. Put it this way, a speech or language woman I went through a long time ago. She said, right, I'll put it this way. This is why you need to get help for your children as soon as you even visit inkling that there could be something there. Start of the year. There's Billy and there's Jamal. Billy, who's White, Jamal who's black. They are presenting with the same problems. By the end of the year, Billy would have got the help and support he needs, Jamal would have been excluded. When you say it like that, that's fucked! okay. Yeah. So these are the type of things you want to think about. You've got your family, you've got the community. You're coming in the schools and nurseries, I've had a great experience at nursery, that's not been everybody's case. That's everyone's story. Before you even get before you even think of EHCP we will get there. amount of trouble, the lack of knowledge, I know that this is actually just a wide, wider thing. But I think it's just that not even that the knowledge isn't accessible. But if you don't have communities, like my own, the amount of people that come onto my posts, one of my most favorited posts is like it's not a privilege, it's entitlement. Just things that you could like little things that you'll you can be potentially eligible for if your child has a different needs. So like DLA, that's a big one. A lot of people don't know you don't actually need a diagnosis for the for DLA. A lot of people don't know how to access that what to do. A lot of people are like waiting for speech and language or want to pay for speech or private speech or language because you wait on the NHS, you wait until you die. Oh, by the way, you can you can, you know, apply for DLA and get So DLA so like, they don't even have the knowledge to be able to help their children. And when it gets there, they're faced with so many barriers. You know. It's depressing.

Lauren Fenton 37:57

It is.

Rina Teslica 39:34

You know what makes it worse though. It's the fact that like, Lauren and I are white, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we've had an easy ride with anything disability related, let alone if we were black or, and English wasn't our first language, we would be fucked because how are you going to access support, speak to people who understand what you're going through, and get help to access things that your child is entitled to? That you have no clue about? It is Awful, awful, awful. Yeah.

Tinuke Awe 40:43

Yeah. It's, it's a lot. It's a lot. And I just think, you know, as a community, we are highly, highly, highly, highly underserved, highly undeserved. And I just think more needs to be done. Just point blank period, like more needs to be done at every level, to just educate people about, you know, what you're entitled to what additional needs means, what it looks like how, how it can affect you, and what you can do to help yourself. And if you if you're not a parent of children with additional needs and you know someone who potentially in your circle, and how you can be a support how you can be of help, and not just, you know, be an active bystander, and just so you know, I feel really sorry for you. But I'm grateful to be in a position where my friends are so understanding, my family is so super supportive, but not everybody gets that not everyone gets that, especially not in the black community.

Rina Teslica 41:52

But you are a ray of light at the end of the tunnel. So you should be incredibly proud of yourself that you've created the safe space, and are enabling black women to get together and help each other out. But it must be really exhausting.

Lauren Fenton 42:08

Yeah, I was gonna say you've, you're shining a light on on something. And I feel like the story that you described with the mother in law and mother, it's like, that's kind of in a microcosm of what you were describing initially around representation and just not seeing black autistic representation. Now, you know, you and Ezekiel, in that circle, shone a light and represented something that was so sweet, but you were saying about your mother in law, when she's looking after this autistic kid. That could be my grandchild, but you can't do it all. And it's amazing that you have this platform, and you're able to share your stories and bring people together. Like Rena said, Guess what, can people listening to this podcast do? What not that you should be the one having to tell people what to do. But just if we were throwing ideas around, how can people be actual, like allies in the actions that they do, rather than you say? Like just being an active bystander?

Tinuke Awe 43:05

No, absolutely. So I guess in terms of that, just like I said, it's just the representation that needs to be there. So I've written a few articles online for some, you know, some some publications, just to try and make sure that like, especially in the media, autism doesn't just look one way. And I'm I'm conscious that I'm not autistic. I'm a parent. So I'm advocating as a parent. It's important to listen to the autistic voices that are out there. And there are so many because my boy, he's a little boys, little five year old boy now, but he will one day grow and be an adult, and he'll be an autistic adult. So I think it's really important that we're listening to the actual voices and experiences of people who are artistic out there. That's first and foremost, because they've got a voice. But I think sharing the knowledge and information for me, that's first and foremost, because you don't know what you don't know. You don't know what you don't know. I do like once in a while I'll do like Instagram lives with experts and stuff and the amount of like feedback I get from that because people people will drop gems in there and it's like, oh my God, I didn't know that. I didn't know you're entitled to that didn't know you could do this. I didn't know it. So that information is like golden, especially when you're a parent to you know, a child with additional needs.

What else can people do out there? Keep the conversation going. Don't be afraid to call stuff out. Don't be afraid to bring stuff up. An article I wrote recently was how aunties and uncles and garden parents can Have the conversation if you think the child might be autistic, because I know parents can be really precious and really protective of their children, which they have every right to be, but because of the the issues I spoke about in the community, sometimes, actually, people are not willing to accept even thinking about that there might be something there because I think deep down, everyone knows, everyone knows, maybe we won't accept it or not everybody, everyone knows that their child might be a little bit different. If that's the case, everyone knows, right. But sometimes they just need a kick up the bum, or they might need maybe I don't want to call it confirmation from someone else. But someone else would be like, Hey, I've noticed this have you? Or, you know, it might not be my thing to say, but I just wanted to raise it anyway. You know, take it how you want, I'm not trying to offend you, I'm not trying to, you know, we need to get better at having these conversations. It can only come from people that you're really, really close to, it can't just come from a random person on the street, it's going to come from love. But we have to get better at having these conversations, because you could not, if fundamentally, and essentially, it's not about the parent, I know we do great jobs. We are you know, we're helping our children and whatever. But it's not about us and our feelings, it's about the child at the end of the day no matter what. So I was writng in that article that there are all of these heavy things in the community. But actually, you could be adding so much more to an autistic person's life. If you speak to their parents and their parents, like, you know what, actually, I have noticed that thank you for signposting me to this information, I'll look into it. And then they go in and don't get support only because you've just had that one conversation that they were scared to have it themselves. So yeah, spreading the information, having conversations, they sound really simple, but they can make the world of a difference.

Rina Teslica 46:59

Honestly, I feel you're on this so much because I come from Kosovo, it's like Eastern European country. And disability is like the biggest taboo still to this day. So my mother in law and mother had the exact same reaction as yours, exactly the same, it took years for them to like, go through the process of grief and like, except Lua. And I still think sometimes they struggle with like fully accepting her disabilities. They love her and cherish her and everything. But it's still that kind of

Rina Teslica 47:32

difficulty because it's like, a taboo thing. And like Kosovo, and Albania and Eastern Europeans having a disability, you don't see none of that shit anywhere. Because they, up until very recently, would hide these children away from society and just keep them locked up as if they didn't exist. And then once I started, like being being on Instagram more, and I, I've had loads of people reach out to me, like thank you, because actually my brother who's like an adult now was hidden away basically all of his life and it's awful. But talking about it and being much more open about things educates, then it's the acceptance, and it just like breaks the terrible cycle that our families, and our parents and their parents were brought up. So it's enriching people's lives by, you know, our wonderful children.

Tinuke Awe 48:26

Absolutely agree. Absolutely. I feel like when we've got these platforms, it's so important that we did, we're highlighting this because we obviously care enough to do to have a platform, if you didn't care a lot that other people don't care enough, maybe they might be too scared, or whatever it may be, but we care. And we've taken that big bold step. And so we have kind of a little bit of a duty to like, put that stuff out there and really tell the truth and really make that difference. And my thing is if you make a difference in one person's life, that's it. That's all. That's enough for me. That's literally that's enough for me, because I've done my job, you know, so we have to, we absolutely have to like scary, scary, scary stuff, people being locked away, literally.

Rina Teslica 49:17

And we'd have that same kind of convos, like with, like, with people not accepting that their kid like I have a friend, her daughter quite clearly is autistic, and she refuses to even think about the fact that her daughter is autistic and her. Her sister in law is a very good friend of mine. And she's reached out and was like, What do you think? I want to know what you think. And I was like, Yeah, I think she she's clearly showing signs to me of autism. I would highly suggest you get a diagnosis because you open up so many doors for her early intervention, all of the things that we know and she relayed this to and she was having none of it and it's and it's like I've done my job, I've been there, but it's then up to you to take it on board and some people are just not ready for it. And it's really disheartening and sad. But it's also like, it takes time. And I understand that completely

Lauren Fenton 50:13

that conversation may still have a very positive impact on that child. Just it just may not be now

Tinuke Awe 50:19

That's true. Talking about stuff like that, oh my god, you just reminded me of a lady that I spoke to recently. She said her brother's estate and she's Nigerian background like me. And she said that her parents when her brother was in school, the school was saying, Look, he's autistic. He's autistic, like, you know, we've got a got to do something. But he's good at maths. So what's the problem? He's good at maths, cool,

Lauren Fenton 50:51

like a lazy autistic trope of like the genius autistic.

Tinuke Awe 50:56

I've heard this too. So in primary school, he got a little bit of support. But when it got a secondary school, they're like, We don't want to label we don't want any, we don't want any help. It's okay. He's good at maths. He's good to go. He struggled in secondary school, somehow made it, got his grades, somehow, past got into college. He's in university at the moment, didn't get any support. But he's been trying to finish his degree for the past. I think she said four or five years. But uh, he doesn't get that extra help, because he obviously doesn't have an ehcp. There's only so much you know, he can do my god like guy, so he's trying to finish his university degree hasn't had any support. And I'm just thinking, wow. So the parents knew, didn't nothing allowed him to struggle. By the way he can't, he can't really write, but he's good at maths, but he can't really write. So he can't even get a scribe, to this boys. journaling.

Rina Teslica 52:01

And He must feel so disheartened, because you'd think that it's his fault that he can't when actually, it's not like, oh, that's so sad

Tinuke Awe 52:09

the saddest, sweetest story because obviously, good on him for like trying to get so far. But imagine how far he could be if his parents just said, Yeah, okay, let him get support and help that he needs it. And this is what I mean. It's not about us, but the fucking child like, I just think, oh my god, do you not care about your child like you care more about the label than care about your child. And furthermore, this label that you don't want to accept, actually unlocks a lot more support and help for you, the parent. Furthermore, us even though we've accepted the label, do you understand that we're stressed out because they're not even doing what they're supposed to? Do? You having the label accepting that you need to have that's only half? Because on the other side, you still got a fight? Yeah. What are you not gathering? It's not all fun and roses and Teletubbies. Why don't you do that? Because I just, I just, you know, I just, honestly, I don't mind stepping on people's necks. I have my Instagram lives. I like you know what? I'm tired of sugarcoating it for you lot. I don't care. You know, I need to really get your ish together. Because it's hard. You're already 10 steps behind, and you want to be even more. No please, that;s your own please. They'll come back in 10 years, or in that window when their about to start school. And this is just what I mean. Like when I say black children present later, it's because of this very thing it's because the parents don't want to accept the label. And then when it's I don't even want to say too late. But when it's like, you know, get to that point where like, they're about to get kicked out of school, maybe we should think about it, realise this, it's too late. You can be here. So yeah, like, I make it comical. But I'm also trying to really, like hone in on that point that you don't accept this label of autism, your child will be labelled something else, especially in the school system. So wear it like a badge of honour, accept it, accept your child, move on, your child is always going to be autistic. And that's that. And furthermore, to keep saying Furthermore, I'm ready to fight.

Lauren Fenton 54:33

I love it.

Tinuke Awe 54:35

I'm in a privileged position because I'm here now with all this experience, and I've built this network. But if if I could speak to me two, three years ago, I'd be like, Yeah, this is great. I love this for you. But um, yeah, I just think if you if you just if you don't accept that label, it's gonna it's gonna come back and bite you in the bum. You love your child. And if your child didn't have that, that additional need or that disability, they wouldn't be who they are. You can't wish it away, you can't pray away, you can't wish it away. This is the situation that it is. The quicker you accept it, the quicker you can get help. Early Intervention, all of these things like, people are like, Oh my God, how do you do early intervention? Wasn't just its early intervention wasn't just, it wasn't by design. Early Intervention we got in there quick. It's not now that he's 10, 11, 12 Trying to get to school, and he's had a ship time in primary school. And now you know, we're thinking, oh, you know, for secondary school may be thinking of it. No, why do that your child? But yeah,

Lauren Fenton 55:40

just to kind of pivot slightly, you're talking about early intervention. Tell us about because you are force. I love that you looking forward and seeing yourself in two years time... And would you also have imagined that you'd have seen an issue that started your business representation with Ez? And just hell make it happen? Can you tell us about learning with errors and what precipitated that?

Tinuke Awe 56:03

Learning with Ez is my baby so I started it actually, before I knew that Ez was autistic and artistic friendly range only came out a couple of months ago. But essentially, because I was kind of, I'm that mum, right? Um, let me just say, Look, I'm Nigerian, I'm the firstborn Nigerian girl. In a Nigerian household, the firstborn gets it, you're a girl forget it, the pressure is on. Me education has been drummed into my head, like I love anything to do with education. I think reading books, that's a bit of me. So I'm, I'm definitely a self proclaimed nerd. And I've just come from that. My mum was a teacher, and I'm not I'm Nigerian. We love education, we love just in just anything, education, bring it. So I studied psychology. I've just always been really interested in books, child development, that kind of thing. So when I had my son, I naturally wanted to like read him loads of books, and do like educational stuff with him at home. And I was trying to just like, do simple things like, find a poster of body parts in a local pound shop, you know, and remember, low and behold all of the illustrations were white. I wasn't really struggling for books, but in terms of like, actual resources to support with education, I was like, This is frustrating. I'm literally having to look for stuff in America and pay for shipping. And that's long. I'm not trying to do that. And if I'm frustrated, then somebody else out there will be also feeling what I'm feeling. So that's how learning when I was born, because I wanted my son, not just my son, but other people that look like my son, to see themselves represented in their learning, but also for other children to see what the world looks like around them. Because if I'm buying, if I'm looking for things in the shop, and all the characters are white, that means that potentially white parents are buying white things for their kids as well. And that's not great either.

Tinuke Awe 58:11

No,

Tinuke Awe 58:11

It's not what the world looks like. It's just not representative.

Rina Teslica 58:17

Amen.

Tinuke Awe 58:18

Yeah. So I started learning with Ez because I actually just, I fundamentally wanted that to change. I hate injustice. I hate things that just don't sit right with me. And I really wanted to change it so yeah, started off with some flashcards. Initially, it was number flashcards, alphabet flashcards. Now, we've got whole range, we've got emotion flash cards, we've got our autism friendly range, which consists of toilet training cards, and the daily routine cards as well. So learning with Ez started because I was really looking for visual aids, to support with his communication needs, so all of the like PECs and like the things on Amazon, they were like stickmen or they want to have white children and I was like, my son's really visual if he seen white children he might not know that I'm trying to apply this to him where I noticed when I'm reading books that look like him or I've got things that you know just represent him, he pays attention. So he's clearly a very visual person he can't communicate that with me but I'm looking at his behaviours and looking at what he's paying attention to and I can see he's definitely way more engaged when the characters look them so I was like I'm missing a trick here. Let's let's literally build a brand based off of him and his friends. So actually the full name of learning with Ez is learning with Ez and friends because it's actually based off of like all the characters or his actual friends.

Lauren Fenton 59:49

So cute. How's it going? How's it going learning with Ez we'll obviously, like link all of this in the show notes for people to visit your website and shop and all the rest of it. But how's it?

Tinuke Awe 1:00:02

Ya know, it's going really well. I'm super, super excited. So this time last year, I was actually doing a fundraiser, a Kickstarter campaign because I was trying to raise the funds to do this, this very project, the autism friendly cards, but I didn't quite meet my target, which was a bummer. But I wasn't going to let like anything like that stop me. So over the past year, I've been busy working behind the scenes and like doing like various courses applying for like pitch competitions, doing loads of things in the background, and I was able to launch those cards couple of months ago, and I'm super, I'm just really happy because I actually got a message, I screenshotted it. I'm just going to read it out because I'm so proud. So this woman goes, Hi Tinuke. I just wanted to let you know that with the help of your cards, we finally been able to potty train our four year old, I had resigned myself to the fact that his autism would mean that potty training would continue to be difficult, and that he just wouldn't understand it. But after showing him the cards every day, for about two weeks, we finally took the nappy off, and he picked it up in the space of a few days.

Rina Teslica 1:01:16

Wow, that's, that's amazing. You should be so proud of yourself for being able to facilitate that which is such which is like, for me, it's like a goal, like a goal goal for Lua to be potty trained. So for you and your incredible ideas to help a special needs child get there is just

Lauren Fenton 1:01:36

we applaud you. That's amazing. It's it's really, really, really cool. And like you said before that you you just want to help one person. It sounds like you're helping fucking shitloads of people. And we haven't even talked about 'Five Times More', which for people who don't know, is a huge, huge campaign that you've spearheaded.

Tinuke Awe 1:01:59

Just having a bit of a moment.

Lauren Fenton 1:02:02

Take your moment, take your moment.

Rina Teslica 1:02:05

Enjoy that moment. You should be so proud of yourself honestly.

Tinuke Awe 1:02:11

I now how hard it is. I try to train as a kid for years and he just wasn't ready and I just thought oh, we're not gonna force him. We're not gonna force him if he's not ready. I'm sending him to school with nappies. It's fine. You know, if I have to come in every time then I just live around the corner I'll do it

Rina Teslica 1:02:31

it's really emotional

Tinuke Awe 1:02:36

to be able to use these cards to help him and then help others means the world I can't put a price on it. I can't I cannot put a price on the fact that my experience and been able to push through someone else's child now is potty trained. Like I can't even get my head around it. I know how many times I would go to bed crying thinking oh my god

Rina Teslica 1:03:14

oh, yeah, it's really emotional. I think I'm also crying because I'm so fucking envious of her too. So

Lauren Fenton 1:03:24

guys a massive thing

Tinuke Awe 1:03:30

if I never sell another learning with this thing again, that's my job.

Lauren Fenton 1:03:38

You are doing so much and it's so it's all so close to home for you. You know your job is your life and how do you create boundaries and how do you like cope with the fact that you know all of these things are emotionally going to take so much out of you? How'd you do that Tinuke?

Tinuke Awe 1:03:59

I didn't used to do it very well. I'll tell you that for free. I didn't I didn't I had no boundaries. I cared way too much about myself into the ground loads of times. Neglected my family just did the most. I didn't know how to regulate I didn't know how to say no before was hard. It was hard until I got to a point where I was like, You know what I can't I can't juggle this juggle that juggle, work juggle additional an additional needs kid I couldn't. I couldn't do it. And I'm a recovering people pleaser so that was really hard. If anyone wanted anything I just been like, Yeah, sure. Why not? You know, couldn't I just found it so hard to say no, I found it so hard to put boundaries in place even though I knew if I said yes, I'd struggle. And I think after Ezekiel's diagnosis I I actually fell into a deep depression not because of the diagnosis Well, partly because of the diagnosis. But partly because at that point in time, I was working full time must my daughter hadn't had, she didn't have a nursery place at the time. So I was working from home with a one year old. Having to pause in like, various times of the day a couple of times a week to take Ezekiel to therapies, speech or language, play, whatever it may be patient health, you know, you name it, we were doing it all and coming back and having to finish off work, and having to do five times more stuff, and having to think about learning with ourselves and having to cook dinner, and be everything to everyone. And I woke up one day, and I said, I can't do this. Something has to give, otherwise, I'm gonna go, my mental health is just gonna go in the bin in the gutter. It just wasn't, I had to obviously discuss with my husband, I said, this is not an easy decision to make, because obviously finances and we've got two kids, and this is hard. But he was supportive. And we somehow managed to work it out like, but I quit my job.

I quit my job because I couldn't. I could not do didn't want to let go five times more because it's so impactful. We're doing so much in that space. Especially at the time as well. It was just a lot going on. Um, I believe so much in learning with Ez there's too, right, you know, if I didn't keep going. Right. But obviously, as a small business owner, and Five X more is a CIC, and we don't we actually rely very heavily on donations, it's been hard to find the Instagram behind it all this, I'll just be completely honest, it's, it's been tough, but it's been the right decision for my family. Because in that, me saying, You know what, no, I can't do this, I've been able to create those boundaries, I've been able to be more flexible with working for myself. So that means I'm able to be more on hand with my family. I utilise the functions on my phone, you know, the do not disturb the work mode, all of that kind of stuff. I've learned how to just say no, if it doesn't suit me, or if I need to reschedule hence why I'm not offended.

Lauren Fenton 1:08:18

You know, I'm just really honest, honoured that you've really been working on saying no, and you've still agreed to come on our podcast, that means a lot to us, because you have got so much going on. And you're damn right. You have to create those boundaries and prioritise what you really want to invest your time in. So yeah, yeah, thank you again for the time.

Tinuke Awe 1:08:41

Oh, my God, thank you for inviting me. Like, I was sheepishly after, like, what happened the last time you guys were on the call, and I had completely forgotten. I was just saying that I was doing. I got to listen, I need to tell myself off. I was sitting there, you message me? And I was like, Oh, my God. And we've been trying to reschedule for the longest time and I've come back to your email because it was unread in my my inbox and unread means, answer it at some point, right. And I've come back sheepishly, I was like, Are you still interested in me? To come on? And you said, Yes. I think it'll be good. Thank you, guys. Thanks for understanding. Now

Lauren Fenton 1:09:24

we get it. We get this. I mean, good. You know, I similar to you made a decision a few years ago after trying to juggle like crazy to walk away from the corporate job that I was doing, because it was just, it just wasn't working for me and my family. It just wasn't working. And so you're very lucky to have a situation where you can be supported and make those decisions. But yeah, everyone's got to do what's right for them and their family. They can. Yeah,

Tinuke Awe 1:09:53

absolutely. So in terms of like, yeah, how do I do it? Oh, and people always ask how do you juggle it. How'd you do it? I'm like, I don't have an answer. Yeah, when you have an answer, let me know. But for now, we're just roughing it out.

Lauren Fenton 1:10:10

Get through the summer holidays, just get holidays.

Tinuke Awe 1:10:14

Let me get through the next three weeks and I'll be good.

Lauren Fenton 1:10:20

Wow, it's been amazing to talk to a, we are so pleased that you agreed to come on and have been so open and honest with us about your experiences and tell us about oh my god, all this stuff that you've got going on and how you're touching other people's lives. It's just absolutely brilliant. And we will signpost everything in our show notes so people can get involved help go on and see what learning with us is all about and wish you so much success with it just so that we can hear the 1000s of versions of that message that you read out how many people you can help,

Rina Teslica 1:10:57

but don't read anymore because then I'll start crying again and again. And again. I can't even go

Tinuke Awe 1:11:01

I don't have no energy to come starving so I have no more messages. It's okay like,

Rina Teslica 1:11:10

oh, it's been an absolute pleasure. Yeah, absolutely. I think I could talk to you for like hours.

Lauren Fenton 1:11:16

Can we do it in a cocktail bar next time or something can we do over drinks? Yes.

Tinuke Awe 1:11:20

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me and for being so patient and waiting. I appreciate you guys so much. Honestly, it's been a great conversation. You too are brilliant love what you're doing love that have been able to keep it real as well.

Lauren Fenton 1:11:38

Right but before you go as you know on the podcast we at the end always ask our guests for what their fucking normal is so to make a what is your fucking normal?

Tinuke Awe 1:11:51

So my fucking normal is watching buses with my son.

Lauren Fenton 1:11:59

Or just like all buses.

Tinuke Awe 1:12:00

On YouTube, we have this thing right? His complete focus right now his his what he loves is buses. He's always been into. He's been out but now he's watching them on YouTube. And he will watch the whole journeys of people on buses. He'll make the noises like when you know whether those days ago. He can mimic word for word. Like pretty much the majority of buses he's either watched on YouTube or been on he knows where they go 188 to Russell Square like he that's my normal. And when I'm trying to get him to calm down, I'll just stop naming local buses and I'll go so if he's like in a mood or like I'll be like Ezekiel 321 to North Greenwich got my normal that's his that's my fucking normal as his that's all normal. But yeah, that's, that's it.

Rina Teslica 1:13:09

I love that. Oh my God, that's the cutest thing I've ever.

Tinuke Awe 1:13:14

I think I've become a bit of a bus fanatic, because

Lauren Fenton 1:13:18

we know at all now, you know. Thank you so much Tinuke. You've been amazing.

Rina Teslica 1:13:25

Thank you.

Lauren Fenton 1:13:30

Thank you so much for listening to the fucking normal podcast. We love making this podcast. Yes, we do. We are part of a much bigger team, almost exclusively all parents of disabled children. And our goal is to reach as many people as possible and create a community of support for parents and carers who share our experiences.

Rina Teslica 1:13:51

So if you've liked what you've heard, please like and subscribe so that we can reach out to more people. You can find more information on this and other episodes at fucking normal podcast.com That's f k ing normal podcast.com you can join us on Facebook and on Instagram at fucking normal underscore podcast. That's f k ing normal underscore podcast. You can get all the links and more information in show notes below.

Lauren Fenton 1:14:15

So thanks so much for listening all the way to the end. We'll see you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Transcribed by https://otter.ai